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The Secret API of Banks

gduverger.com

191–200 of 257 posts

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#191
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PSD2 and “open” banking is bullshit. I wish this myth would die - it is anything but “open”. If you want to gain access to API s , you need to become an “AISP” (as they are called in the UK), this requires a certification and a load of other nonsense akin to PCI-DSS. This is for read-only access - for “write” access including the ability to edit payees or make payments you need to become a “PISP” which I assume requi…

> If you want to gain access to APIs, you need to become an “AISP” It's more complicated than that. Banks can give unregulated entities access to their APIs, but they don't because IMO providing API access is directly opposed to their interests. If you want to be statutorily entitled to API access you need to be a registered AISP or PISP. Unfortunately what an AIS is is very specific, i.e. showing the account owner a…

I'm actually investigating the ins and outs of building a product that interposes between e-money gateways and businesses implementing them. It has three purposes:

- Data synchronization. Usually, either because you're sane, or have legal obligations to do so, you maintain your own ledgers in addition to those provided by the payment service provider. It's hard to do, leads to countless hours of manual maintenance when something goes wrong which of course alienates a (hopefully small) part of your clients.

- Proper handling of a "distributed system". By distributed system I mean a CRUD remote service with asynchronous notifications, not paxos-based phd-level systems. I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty of communicating with "simple" systems like this, quite the contrary. There can fail in quite surprising ways. I'm not even mentioning the fact payment-services have unrollbackable real-world consequences, like money-real. It's really easy to lose money when misusing a payment system.

- Providing a meta-interface to many payment-systems.

-- Migrating from one payment service to another one can turn out to be a multiple-people year-long project for some?/many? businesses. This is even more impactful for startups that manage to break through and need to find a better deal with a different payment service as their user base sky-rockets.

-- In some countries (for instance Morocco), there is no deal between international players in the PSP market (PayPal, Stripe, etc ...) and national banks. To perform electronic payments, you must communicate with the system of a state-controlled entity. Businesses that want to extend their market to these countries must support additional developments, that may well cost them as much as plugging to yet another payment system.

I tried my best reading the PSD2, but I wasn't able to determine if the law applied recursively: for instance, as an AISP (Account Information Service Provider), can I legally aggregate data coming from other AISPs (i.e. with the access to that data being granted to me by the law) ?

Anyway, for technical, UX, and legal reasons (mainly avoiding the 50k€ requirement) I thought it would be better to abandon the idea of proposing my clients access to a remote service but to instead loan them a local service as a brick to place in their own infrastructure (in the form of a container for instance). This service's data would be theirs and stored in their own database. To use it they would configure it with their own API keys to these various payment systems.

What would be the legal requirements under such a configuration ?

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#192
Can you expand on unwanted transactions?

TBH, the only “unwanted” transactions I’ve found were indeed fradulent, and these have been immediately caught by BoFA, VISA, and other financiers. I have had problems with false positives, however.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#193
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that's the target for anonymous cryptocurrencies like Monero and ZCash?

I'm skeptical of any tender that is rendered worthless by something as simple and common as an electrical outage.

And by "electrical outage" you mean more of a end of the world scenario? Because a normal electrical outage is not going to make your Monero worthless. It will have the exact same value before, during and after the outage. You need electricity to use Monero, but that can be also said about any credit or debit card.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#194
post #82
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, on one hand, great. I made the switch to a similar bank myself a few years back. What I failed to realise at the time was how exposed I became to the vulnerabilities associated with being cashless. Cash is not just an ancient relic. Cash is an ancient relic and a fundamental component of a free society. My country has, in practise, become nearly cashless and I used to be proud to be one of the very early ado…

Could you elaborate on the risks of not using cash for you?

I always phrase this badly the first time around. I don't mind not using cash. I mind when I don't even have the option to use cash.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to gain access to APIs, you need to become an “AISP” It's more complicated than that. Banks can give unregulated entities access to their APIs, but they don't because IMO providing API access is directly opposed to their interests. If you want to be statutorily entitled to API access you need to be a registered AISP or PISP. Unfortunately what an AIS is is very specific, i.e. showing the account owner a…

I'm actually investigating the ins and outs of building a product that interposes between e-money gateways and businesses implementing them. It has three purposes: - Data synchronization. Usually, either because you're sane, or have legal obligations to do so, you maintain your own ledgers in addition to those provided by the payment service provider. It's hard to do, leads to countless hours of manual maintenance wh…

The problem is that your appliance/container will not be allowed to access the AISP-only APIs provided by the banks, unless your client themselves become an AISP.

Not an issue if you're doing screen-scraping though, I agree (although in that case, do you even care about AISP certifications? You can so scraping-as-a-service and in fact there is an entire industry around this already).

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#196
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PSD2 and “open” banking is bullshit. I wish this myth would die - it is anything but “open”. If you want to gain access to API s , you need to become an “AISP” (as they are called in the UK), this requires a certification and a load of other nonsense akin to PCI-DSS. This is for read-only access - for “write” access including the ability to edit payees or make payments you need to become a “PISP” which I assume requi…

So you take issue with the fact that there's a high bar when dealing with personal data and real money? Especially when this gives you access to do it en-masse? It's open, just not the "open" you imagine. Like anyone from the street being allowed to do it.

The problem is that the value of an API is in the fact that it is open as in open, not "open" like "open banking".

An API that can only be accessed by a few huge players is next to useless. Those guys have already figured out a workaround for the lack of APIs, mainly screen-scraping.

However the real innovation comes from small startups, sometimes originating from a one-man side-project - this "open" banking completely forgets that.

And finally, my problem is that it does not even allow access to your own account. Let's forget about accessing other accounts for a second - I just want to do whatever I want with my own account.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#197

I guess it's not popular or all that well-known anymore, but for quite a while there's been a Quicken-led banking interface for some banks. Known as OFX or Direct Connect, it provides at least one-way (download) access to banking transactions. I think there's a way to upload as well but have never used it nor had a bank that supports it for upload. My bank has a separate enrollment - it was free - offering download-o…

^ This. It's often called "Quicken Direct Connect" (NOT "web connect", that's a bastardization trying to push the login flow through the proprietary web interface), and often has to be specifically enabled for your account (Bank of Slum-merica is the only place I've heard charging for the functionality though). Check say https://ofx-prod-filist.intuit.com/qb2600/data/fidir.txt to see if your bank is listed (that cont…

How does web connect actually work? I've never found any description of the method

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#198

The actual secret API of banks-and by the way this is the initial strategy Plaid pursed if rumor is to be believed (essentially without the consent of the banks)-is by reverse engineering mobile app APIs. Most of these bank APIs try to use cheesy secret token vending to prevent casual API traffic on their endpoints, but the reality is that a sufficiently instrumented Android kernel (or rooted iOS device) will let you…

Why don't banks sell API access at a rate s/similar/lower than Google Maps API access? This is starting to feel like music and video piracy all over again.

It's just a common case of the past trying to control the future.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#199

Can you expand on unwanted transactions? TBH, the only “unwanted” transactions I’ve found were indeed fradulent, and these have been immediately caught by BoFA, VISA, and other financiers. I have had problems with false positives, however.

People would normally call out fraud if that were the case, but it's certainly possible that it's something the bank isn't aware of yet so their systems did not catch.

In general I just assumed he meant things like "signed up for that trial and forgot to cancel", "accidentally got charged twice", "tip amount was clearly wrong"... Innocent things that happen from time to time, but clearly need to be resolved.

Re: The Secret API of Banks

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also the USA is still using cheques. They haven't even got to chip and pin yet. We are pretty much past that and onto contactless." I'm not sure what you're talking about. All my cards have chips, and I'm in the US. And for several years, I've been living in an apartment which takes direct bank transfers for rent rather than paper checks. Landlords in my experience have been the last holdouts that don't want to stop…

Most American cards are chip and signature, not chip and pin. And they weren't even chip at all until recently.

"until recently" meaning several years ago? Availability of terminals and support for the chip was what lagged, not the cards themselves (though that's a semantic argument in this case).

I would also somewhat argue that "most" cards are chip and signature, not chip and PIN. While in the US my cards all prefer PIN, it wasn't until I got out of the US that for some reason they all wanted a signature - talk about irony.

It's still far from ideal and not nearly as rigid as it is in Europe, but it's not quite as bad as you seem to think it is.

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