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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#391

Post by olejorgenb »

WalterBright wrote: post #189

I'll suggest again that the solution to this is to charge variable prices to the consumer based on the supply. For example, I pay exactly the same rate, 24/7. Of course this will result in a mismatch of supply and demand. A lot of electricity demand can be shifted to when the supply is cheapest. When the supply varies wildly, like solar and wind do, there's a giant impedance mismatch when demand is charged a fixed pr…

Norway have introduced smart-meters that measure consumption with quite high frequency - I think something like every hour. Some concerns about privacy have been raised, and it's possible to be exempted with a doctors notice.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#392

Post by js2 »

WalterBright wrote: post #189

I'll suggest again that the solution to this is to charge variable prices to the consumer based on the supply. For example, I pay exactly the same rate, 24/7. Of course this will result in a mismatch of supply and demand. A lot of electricity demand can be shifted to when the supply is cheapest. When the supply varies wildly, like solar and wind do, there's a giant impedance mismatch when demand is charged a fixed pr…

This is available in NC.

https://www.duke-energy.com/home/billing/rates

TOU summer rates:

23.456¢ per on-peak kWh

11.945¢ per shoulder kWh

7.012¢ per off-peak kWh

vs fixed summer rate of 10.369¢ per kWh.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#393

Post by aoner »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I think sustainable ammonia production would be a good fit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_production

> Ammonia production depends on plentiful supplies of energy, predominantly natural gas. Due to ammonia's critical role in intensive agriculture and other processes, sustainable production is desirable. This is possible by using renewable energy to generate hydrogen by electrolysis of water. This would be straightforward in a hydrogen economy by diverting some hydrogen production from fuel to feedstock use. For example, in 2002, Iceland produced 2,000 tons of hydrogen gas by electrolysis, using excess electricity production from its hydroelectric plants, primarily for the production of ammonia for fertilizer.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#394

Post by aoner »

WalterBright wrote: post #218
WalterBright wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heck, you could even go to town running an icemaker at noon when power is cheap, and set out trays of ice in the evening with a fan blowing over it. That can even be turned into an appliance that would be an accessory to your HVAC system.

During the winter, one can electrically heat concrete blocks during the day, they release their heat at night. (A concrete block makes for a pretty cheap "battery" !! )

So basically floor heating :). Don't forget to use some heat pumps to tripple your energy gains

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#395

Post by nostrademons »

cromulent wrote: post #331
nostrademons wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but tends to be windier. My understanding is that renewable use in Germany is largely driven by wind power.

Germany has 5 times as much solar capacity as wind power, and the highest PV watts-per-capita in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country

The chart you linked to shows wind at 45GW in 2015 and solar at 41GW in 2016, and this page [1] shows net generated energy in 2016 at 77TWh for wind and 37.5TWh for solar. Are you sure you weren't looking at the "New installed capacity" for wind and comparing it to the total capacity for solar? (The solar numbers are admittedly bigger than I expected to see, though it appears that wind is growing 4x faster than solar, which is the opposite from the U.S, where the installed wind base in greater but solar is growing 2x faster.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#396

Post by caf »

carlmr wrote: post #316
caf wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least for the specific case of washing you can get most of the benefit by moving to a time-of-use tariff and scheduling the washing machine to run during the off peak time. (Washing machines do seem to use a surprisingly large amount of energy, particularly the ones that heat the water internally).

With a quick search I can't find any energy company in my area offering time-of-use tariffs. I remember in the 90s it used to be standard to have a cheaper night tariff. But there's nothing that actually does impedance matching through financial incentives. By the second spot rates might be slightly too volatile for the average consumer to use, but what you could have is smart pricing mechanisms where you can e.g. lo…

If your energy retailers aren't offering a simple TOU tariff, I feel like an automatic auction system is going to be several bridges too far for them.

You should try writing to them and asking if they have any plans for TOU - they might not realise there's any demand for it.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#397

Post by foxyv »

So we need a product that uses large amounts of nearly free electricity that can be produced during specific parts of the day. Maybe some sort of smart aluminum factory, hydrogen generator or water purifier. Then again, maybe the capital depreciation would necessitate continuous usage.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#398

Post by CamTin »

WalterBright wrote: post #300
hoschicz wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why heat concrete blocks? Doesn't water have a higher thermal capacity?

Concrete blocks do not leak or wear out. They are cheap and zero maintenance. For more thermal capacity, use a bigger block. You can even make them structural - using concrete for walls.

Bake yourself, your pets, and your belongings during the day, and freeze at night, so that the average temperature, which you will experience roughly twice in a day-night cycle, is comfortable?

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#399

Post by uxp »

jasoncartwright wrote: post #324
fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

This is exactly how the 6th largest power plant in the UK works (but the turbine is reversed to become the pump) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McByJeX2evM https://electricityproduction.uk/plant/GBR1000151/

There's a number of them all over the world. Surprisingly simple idea and amazingly powerful storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroel...

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#400

Post by itronitron »

barking wrote: post #361
fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

The train goes up, the train goes down: a simple new way to store energy https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-storage-rail This sounds good to me and it claims have 86% efficiency.

Interesting, I wonder how long a rail system would need to be in order to be able to pull energy from tidal effects with the moon.
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