Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat • Hacker News Board

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#171

Post by candiodari » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

nemetroid wrote: post #167

candiodari wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts. Obviously not true. In fact, this is so obviously wrong I don't know where to start. Differences between civil and criminal courts: * different hierarchy * different powers (criminal court can, say, order imprisonment) * different judges * different parties (defendant vs prosecution for criminal, defendant vs compl…

> Differences between civil and criminal courts: I spoke too broadly - apparently, some countries (including France, Spain, Poland and Italy) do have different courts for civil and criminal matters. Other countries do not (including Germany, Sweden, Hungary and Slovakia) [0]. > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partie_civile_en_France > Google suggests this as an English alternative: > https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi…

> I spoke too broadly - apparently, some countries (including France, Spain, Poland and Italy) do have different courts for civil and criminal matters. Other countries do not (including Germany, Sweden, Hungary and Slovakia) [0].

Not "some countries" ... All countries have different criminal and civil codes, and therefore courts, and judges, and lawyers, and ... all different. I'm pretty interested which country, exactly, only has a single system across criminal and civil law. Common law has the separation, Napoleonic code has the separation, see next paragraph for explanation why that's pretty much enough to declare it true for the entire world.

> I have only read briefly, but noted two things to start with: the document in English clearly states that it only describes the French system (even though other countries are mentioned at times), and it is also 60 years old. But even so:

I feel like, again, I need to quote a bit, not even of "law 101", but the basic explanation they give when they have someone tour the law faculty. There are 2 modern law "systems" that pretty much all other law is based upon. One is Common law, the other is the law introduced by Napoleon, in 1804, referred to in English as the Napoleonic code, and adopted in all countries he conquered. To a rough approximation you could say that any country that was not a colony of Britain has the Napoleonic code as a legal basis (including countries that claim different for one reason or another, like Saudi Arabia that claims to have Sharia, but upon even cursory examination that will strike you as a very hollow claim)

The "partie civil" process is a part of Napoleonic code (references for this, obviously, are in French legalese).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code (note the separation between civil and criminal courts in a very old document, which is why it's so widely used) and ... given the mistakes you make ... perhaps you might consider speaking with a bit less authority ?

> If this is as common as you claim, it should not be difficult to find recent sources which support it.

And the resources I pointed out do describe this, and yes, I get it. It's law ... the sources where law is condensed are not free, and cannot be linked to, ancient books that do describe it are more-or-less in Google books, but they're still pretty technical and long-winded.

Also, for obvious reasons, most "intro to law" for any particular Napoleonic code is not in English. The good ones are in French.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#172

Post by arethuza » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 8:20 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #159

arethuza wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what would you recommend?

Anything else. The points system seems sufficent to me for most driving offences, beyond costs. But community service, prison time, curfews, anything which is equivalent and not open to manipulation.

I wonder of all of the options what the speeder would have chosen - I suspect he would pay the money and move on.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#173

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent.

That's not true at all. Who told you that? Wrongful imprisonment suits generally depend on the state's laws. Some states provide for damages, some (mostly in the East/South) do not. Intent of the prosecutor or police is irrelevant--what matters is that the person wrongfully accused has been shown not to have committed the crime.

Most defendants that win wrongful imprisonment settlements were generally tried by prosecutors utterly convinced that they defendants had actually committed the crime, with no malicious intent.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#174

Post by candiodari » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

jchb wrote: post #113

candiodari wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sites tells you all one needs to know about government/police accountability in Denmark. A few examples: Several people died, about 10 years ago, between being arrested and arriving in prison. They were entirely healthy before, and showed signs of getting severely beaten. The state refused to even investigate the police officers involved, and none have received any punishment (or even had their names released).…

> The Danish government steals Jewellery of immigrants, and has that practice as a policy Not exactly any immigrant. Only those that apply for asylum and need the state to provide them with accommodation and living expenses. Further, if they do not consent to the confiscation, the police must refer it to a court, and the court may decide to return the valuables. Also, when/if the asylum application is successful and…

Glad we can at least agree it's stealing.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#175

Post by sureaboutthis » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #53

sureaboutthis wrote: post #46

What is the alternative then? Let a probable criminal go wander the streets or disappear altogether? At least these people have some possibility of release rather than none at all. While some innocents may be confined to a jail awaiting trial, I'm sure this is a minority, not the majority. Even then, bail skippers still occur. Let's quit with the "Oh the poor criminal being treated that way" mentality.

> "Oh the poor criminal being treated that way" No. It's the exact opposite. Until they are proven guilty of a crime, it's a "Oh the poor innocent people being treated that way" mentality, and that is perfectly justifiable. People awaiting trial should only be locked away when there's any actual reason to believe they would disappear or commit a serious crime before their trial.

Thus, the purpose of bail money that people are complaining about. However, as I said in my post, most people are likely to be guilty of said crime and the most heinous ones are those you don't want them on the streets.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#176

Post by sureaboutthis » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

kup0 wrote: post #76

sureaboutthis wrote: post #46

What is the alternative then? Let a probable criminal go wander the streets or disappear altogether? At least these people have some possibility of release rather than none at all. While some innocents may be confined to a jail awaiting trial, I'm sure this is a minority, not the majority. Even then, bail skippers still occur. Let's quit with the "Oh the poor criminal being treated that way" mentality.

The fundamental flaw in your viewpoint is the fact that you see nearly everyone awaiting trial as a criminal. Regardless of whether the system respects this- "innocent until proven guilty" is a principle that we should not lose

I'll repeat what I asked, what is your alternative?

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#177

Post by sureaboutthis » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #56

sureaboutthis wrote: post #46

What is the alternative then? Let a probable criminal go wander the streets or disappear altogether? At least these people have some possibility of release rather than none at all. While some innocents may be confined to a jail awaiting trial, I'm sure this is a minority, not the majority. Even then, bail skippers still occur. Let's quit with the "Oh the poor criminal being treated that way" mentality.

> What is the alternative then? Let a probable criminal go wander the streets or disappear altogether? Grotesque inequities in the bail system are merely one symptom of the intractable disaster of criminal justice in America. This problem is tied to many other problems, you can't deal with them one at a time. But "letting someone go" is not as bad as it sounds. Keeping them in jail because they can't come up with a f…

Thus a good reason to not put yourself into serious situations that cause you to be arrested. Let's not blame the system that arrested someone doing criminal activity.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#178

Post by throw2016 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

wang_li wrote: post #170

throw2016 wrote: post #142

There is an incestuous network of profit driven companies who benefit from this. Apart from the bail bonds and insurance companies detailed in the article there are also private prisons. All these interests are perfectly aligned to lobby and fund campaigns and 'grow their business'. Their presence and funding of DA and judges is a clear conflict of interest. This is basically a synergy of corruption and exploitation.…

According to ProPublica[1], in 2010 there were 1.6 million people in prisons in the US. Of those 128,195 were in private prison facilities. According to [2], the number of federal inmates in private facilities in 2016 was 22,000, which is down from 27,000 mentioned in the ProPublica piece in 2010. Additionally, in 2016 the Feds announced the intent to discontinue the use of private prisons. (Don't know if that has ch…

That Fed announcement was an Obama era directive and was reversed by Jeff Sessions in 2017 [1]. 8.5% is not a small number and the conflict of interest is untenable as the scandals have shown.

That this could be reversed inspite of known abuses [2] and serious problems [3] with the private prison system is extremely troubling. Private prison operators are one of the largest lobbying groups and spend more than $45 million a year on lobbying. [4]

There have been a series of serious scandals with private prisons [5], judges [6] and corruption [7] with people sent to prison simply to pad numbers in private prisons. It's unteneble for a civilized society that believes in rule of law to allow justice to be vulgarized in this manner and allow a system known to be corrupt to stand.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justi...

[2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/...

[3] http://time.com/5013760/american-private-prisons-donald-trum...

[4] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-yankovich/be-careful-pr...

[5] https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2011/08/12/pennsylv...

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html

[7] https://boingboing.net/2013/08/06/judge-who-accepted-private...

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#179

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

deelowe wrote: post #118

fastball wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bail bondsmen?

I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results i…

It can go even further than that: In some areas, the courts can require you to use a bondsman. You simply cannot pay it yourself. You either pay the bondsman or you sit in jail. There is no other choice.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#180

Post by ocschwar » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

> If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company?

In Finland, speeding fines are income based to make sure they sting enough to get the drivers to change their habits. It's a bit moot with Gates (he takes a car to a racetrack if he feels like speeding) but it sure would be a useful thing for areas with too many Beemer drivers.