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Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#51

Post by kodablah »

clairity wrote: post #48
kodablah wrote: post #7

I'm confused about a couple of things. First, the tech. So my browsing history is sent over the internet to a third party who comes up with recommendations via some magic opaque system? Can some recommendations be prioritized by how much you pay this third party? I have all sorts of questions about Laserlike's use of the data, but I guess I can dig for myself. Sure, you can say "well, don't use it" but this is more a…

this is the market working as intended. search is overridden with advertising, corporate messaging, politics and other moneyed interests. in contrast, users are looking for authentic content and information. those two things are increasingly misaligned. mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want, rather than deferring to google et al. to deliver subpar user experiences. it may work, it m…

> this is the market working as intended

Is it? I would love for a transparent market-driven motivation to be presented. But in its absence, we can only guess.

> mozilla is experimenting with a new way for users to find what they want

Why? Because they don't like the existing ways? Because they believe it fits their mission? Because there is money on the line? My TV vendor also experiments with new ways to host apps and use the internet too.

> it may work, it may not, but i’m glad they are trying

I personally am not glad they are trying. In fact, these trials help solidify my beliefs in the Mozilla's ideals regarding the role of a browser and can potentially alienate me or at the least prevent them from maintaining an air of righteousness in my eyes.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#53

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

tapoxi wrote: post #21

I don't get how this relates to Mozilla's mission, I especially don't understand how technologies that are core to their mission (open communication with Thunderbird, open identity with Persona) are left abandoned. I'm not offended by the extension, I'm more befuddled why they're wasting their time and money on something very few people want. My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some…

Mozilla is in a tough place. They build a product for an ecosystem where invasive tracking and surveillance are required to make decent money, and they have to monetize that product or die, all while presenting themselves as a benevolent non-profit that cares about privacy and keeping the web healthy.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#54

Post by JetSpiegel »

acdha wrote: post #46
tapoxi wrote: post #21

I don't get how this relates to Mozilla's mission, I especially don't understand how technologies that are core to their mission (open communication with Thunderbird, open identity with Persona) are left abandoned. I'm not offended by the extension, I'm more befuddled why they're wasting their time and money on something very few people want. My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some…

> My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some startup's bot reading by browsing history. Isn't that how we ended up with Facebook's ad targeting algorithms controlling most people's web experience? Running a cheap experiment testing how alternatives might work seems like important if you care about not having network effects giving a couple of companies significant control over the web…

Why are Laserlike's ad targeting algorithms better than Facebook? The alternative to Facebook is not a smaller younger Facebook, it's open protocols.

If you want to send all your browser history into a black box and get recomendations on what to read use Chrome.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#55

Post by kodablah »

callahad wrote: post #50
kodablah wrote: post #7

I'm confused about a couple of things. First, the tech. So my browsing history is sent over the internet to a third party who comes up with recommendations via some magic opaque system? Can some recommendations be prioritized by how much you pay this third party? I have all sorts of questions about Laserlike's use of the data, but I guess I can dig for myself. Sure, you can say "well, don't use it" but this is more a…

Nick Nguyen's post on Context Graph¹ touches on the motivation, but in short, we think the health of the Web is threatened by existing players building experiences that, like a casino, you can link into easily, but which are deliberately difficult to navigate away from. For example, Instagram has historically restricted² which users are allowed to include external links in their posts. That harms the Open Web and con…

Thanks for the response. I think by your phrasing that this experiment is not testing revenue generation you are also saying there is no revenue relation at all, correct? (well, maybe for Laserlike, heh) Disclosure of monetization of data in any form IMO should be a requirement, so I hope that its lack of disclosure means it is not occurring.

While I agree in general that alternative web traversal techniques could be explored, I am not sure I want my browser vendor + third party doing it. I understand the places we put in our address bar may have restrictive rules, and it's why I don't enter those places into my address bar. In good faith, if this experiment is deemed successful enough to improve/continue, I would ask that the role that Laserlike plays be pluggable with an open protocol. I would also ask that if it's adopted more mainstream that it always remain opt-in.

I know that it sometimes seems unfair to ask for all these freedom-respecting things while the other guys get away with so much. But what seems like a double standard is what endears trust.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#56

Post by dralley »

drb91 wrote: post #31
icebraining wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a plugin, it's a browser feature, like bookmarks and the web inspector.

The line between plugins and features is only useful if it's meaningful. Pocket is, by every appearance, a bookmark service. Why is that integrated into the browser? There's already Firefox Sync. It should be opt-in; I'm in agreement here.

Pocket is cross-platform whereas Firefox Sync is not. You can still install Pocket for Chrome, etc.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#57

Post by callahad »

drb91 wrote: post #10
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel compelled to point out straight away that this is explicitly opt-in. Now. > The sky is not falling just because they're offering something like this locked behind two separate opt-in steps. They did the same scam with Pocket. Now, tell me how to disable that again?

> Now, tell me how to disable that again? You can disable it in about:config.

Even better: You can use a Group Policy (Windows) or drop a JSON file in the right place (all platforms) and you're done. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customizing-firefox-usi...

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#58

Post by acdha »

JetSpiegel wrote: post #54
acdha wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some startup's bot reading by browsing history. Isn't that how we ended up with Facebook's ad targeting algorithms controlling most people's web experience? Running a cheap experiment testing how alternatives might work seems like important if you care about not having network effects giving a couple of companies significant control over the web…

Why are Laserlike's ad targeting algorithms better than Facebook? The alternative to Facebook is not a smaller younger Facebook, it's open protocols. If you want to send all your browser history into a black box and get recomendations on what to read use Chrome.

Think about what you're describing: if the goal is to offer a new UI feature and see how users react, do you a) spend years standardizing a new protocol or b) use a single source to try it immediately while you independently explore the long-term options?

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#59

Post by htor »

i can't help but feel disappointed about mozilla proposing to have advertisement mechanisms built right into their browser. there's a blurry line between suggestions and plain advertisement. as a user online i don't need more relevant information. this is just marketing people baloney to make people buy more stuff.

Re: Firefox Offers Recommendations with Latest Test Pilot Experiment: Advance

#60

Post by htor »

tapoxi wrote: post #21

I don't get how this relates to Mozilla's mission, I especially don't understand how technologies that are core to their mission (open communication with Thunderbird, open identity with Persona) are left abandoned. I'm not offended by the extension, I'm more befuddled why they're wasting their time and money on something very few people want. My friends/social network are going to suggest cool stuff to read, not some…

agree, agree! mozilla have forgotten their root objective. someone should fork mozilla, remove unneeded features and publish a slimmer, focused version under a new licence.
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