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The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

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Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While no economist is yet advocating tariffs, except perhaps Peter Navarro (who's not taken that seriously), the attitude among economists that free trade is unequivocally a good thing is starting to change. There is traction for the work of David Autor where he argues that the effects of trade are unevenly distributed and thus some people do not benefit from free trade. The policy ramifications of this gaining tract…

Yes this is critical - free trade benefits the economy/country as a whole but the benefits do not accrue evenly across society. Laymen have basically been saying this for years while being ignored by the ruling elites but economists have been slowly starting to get on board. Even post Trump I suspect that the global attitude toward free trade will become much more nuanced than it had been over the past 20+ years.

No economist has ever claimed that global trade is Pareto-optimal inside nations. It's well known fact that some industries suffer and some thrive. It's just that the total sum is positive.

The trade shocks should not be handled with tariffs or restricting trade. It's domestic policy issue.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While no economist is yet advocating tariffs, except perhaps Peter Navarro (who's not taken that seriously), the attitude among economists that free trade is unequivocally a good thing is starting to change. There is traction for the work of David Autor where he argues that the effects of trade are unevenly distributed and thus some people do not benefit from free trade. The policy ramifications of this gaining tract…

Yes this is critical - free trade benefits the economy/country as a whole but the benefits do not accrue evenly across society. Laymen have basically been saying this for years while being ignored by the ruling elites but economists have been slowly starting to get on board. Even post Trump I suspect that the global attitude toward free trade will become much more nuanced than it had been over the past 20+ years.

I think this is a fair point, but I'd argue that there are two separate issues, trade policy and job training programs, etc.

We've seen a lot of innovation in the area of free trade, commerce, etc., but virtually no innovation in education, on the job training, and other areas where policy can help make the economy stronger overall.

So in my view, tariffs are used in a way that is meant to undo the damage from decades of neglect of our educational and skills training infrastructure.

This doesn't call for a more nuanced view on trade (freer is always better), it is a call for us to begin to think rationally about job training.

Whatever job anyone has today, whatever product is demanded today, etc., will not necessarily be the same tomorrow. When we pretend otherwise -- such as the fiction that first world nations should manufacture steel -- we invite all sorts of bad policy when what we really needed was honest understanding that economies change.

Keep in mind that most moral progress over time is not the result of rational people convincing others of something that was previously opaque, it is due simply to economic progress. In other words, moral progress is a luxury we buy with prosperity.

Where we lag in this area most today is that we fail to understand that we must invest heavily in job training, education, entrepreneurship, and other areas that create new life when industries change, move abroad, or shrink.

It so happens that in US politics there are some influential electoral districts that contain steel mills and which have suffered from economic globalization. Sure the easiest way to placate those districts is to introduce tariffs or use other means to offer welfare that prevent those impacted from adapting.

Most of the buildings that house startups in urban parts of the US were once used for manufacturing or meat packing. This is a good thing in the medium term.

But creating job training or investing in new industries to replace old ones is not economics, it's social policy. We should not make the mistake of confusing it with economics.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is critical - free trade benefits the economy/country as a whole but the benefits do not accrue evenly across society. Laymen have basically been saying this for years while being ignored by the ruling elites but economists have been slowly starting to get on board. Even post Trump I suspect that the global attitude toward free trade will become much more nuanced than it had been over the past 20+ years.

No economist has ever claimed that global trade is Pareto-optimal inside nations. It's well known fact that some industries suffer and some thrive. It's just that the total sum is positive. The trade shocks should not be handled with tariffs or restricting trade. It's domestic policy issue.

This needs to be emphasized more - Economics is given a bad rep for creating inequalities, but the field is playing with half the handbook - domestic policy in the form of fiscal policy (i.e. decision on how much and where to spend $), as well as distribution policy (i.e. how much redistribution to engineer via taxation/subsidies, etc.) has never been in the hands of any real economists - domestic politics has always taken the forefront in these decisions, and rightfully should take the blame for the results.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#54
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

Doesn't this all assume that all trading partners are being fair and honest, though? For example, let's say a country artificially keeps prices low for microchips in an effort to infiltrate the US market (for whatever underlying reason). Or some other country's clothing is super-cheap because they use forced labor. I'm no economist, and I'm not even well-versed in the subject. I don't even know if these are real-worl…

If a foreign government subsidizes manufacturing of things that are exported to the US, it is taxing its own citizens and effectively paying US firms/individuals to import those goods at a discount.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#55
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

> traditionally have frowned upon receiving welfare You weaken your (otherwise solid) argument when you do that. Tariffs and welfare are two different things, and you know that, and everybody reading this knows that, but you try to sneak in a conflation anyway. They're both bad, but they're bad for different reasons: accepting that taxation is a necessary evil (I'm not sure I do, but set that aside), welfare involves…

I meant corporate welfare.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#56
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this all assume that all trading partners are being fair and honest, though? For example, let's say a country artificially keeps prices low for microchips in an effort to infiltrate the US market (for whatever underlying reason). Or some other country's clothing is super-cheap because they use forced labor. I'm no economist, and I'm not even well-versed in the subject. I don't even know if these are real-worl…

If a foreign government subsidizes manufacturing of things that are exported to the US, it is taxing its own citizens and effectively paying US firms/individuals to import those goods at a discount.

If it were that simple than no one would care if Walmart dumps a ton of goods on the market at below cost to drive its competitors out of business.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#57
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

Doesn't this all assume that all trading partners are being fair and honest, though? For example, let's say a country artificially keeps prices low for microchips in an effort to infiltrate the US market (for whatever underlying reason). Or some other country's clothing is super-cheap because they use forced labor. I'm no economist, and I'm not even well-versed in the subject. I don't even know if these are real-worl…

To answer your high level question: Absolutely not.

International trade theory's core concepts are structured as a n-player game, with n being the number of nations. That is to say, a nation has a fixed amount of resources. If a domestic policy is chosen to optimize for the production of cheap microchips (because you can't produce under-cost for a significant period of time), you are impacting the production of other goods.

When a nation optimizes for the production of a good it can produce advantageously (see: comparative advantage), the world benefits (As you make less of the goods you produce less efficiently). Sure, individual members within the nation may receive subsidies or subsidize others, but that's a domestic issue.

It's difficult to explain this in the level of detail that it warrants to the layman, because the underlying theory is built upon a substantial chunk of underlying economic theory. The biggest issue with Econ is that it's simply unintuitive, and that it takes a lot of effort to switch your mindset.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#58
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. I'm not going to pretend to be an economist, serious or otherwise, so I won't dispute this notion. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. This, however, needs some augmentation. Tariffs are a tool. Like most tools, they can be used multiple ways. Tariffs aren't only for balancing trad…

Your point is well taken. In my view, tariffs should not be used to achieve social welfare goals. When we create economic distortions the cost is usually much higher than it appears.

I'm not sure, however, how you can say that working in a steel mill that would not be in business if it weren't for tariffs on imported steel comes with any dignity. Sure there is the dignity of showing up for a job and doing good work, but ultimately that job is being funded by welfare, and is itself a handout being received by the worker.

The economy is a rapidly changing thing, and there is no reason to believe that any industry that is thriving today will still be thriving in a decade.

But rather than undertake the worthy and challenging task of positioning our economy (via job training, entrepreneurship, etc.) to be resilient to change, we prop up industries that are much more efficiently done elsewhere.

Consider how this would have played out in the early days of the automobile. Soon most of the blacksmiths who had been gainfully employed putting shoes on horses would find themselves out of work because people started preferring motorized cars to horse-drawn transit.

By your logic, we should have idealized that horse-drawn era and should have put policies in place to guarantee that all of those blacksmiths were able to continue the dignity of their trade even though their skills were demanded much less.

While there is something nostalgic about the days of horses and pre-industrial society, most of the important humanitarian (moral, etc) advances that have been made since then have been due to the proceeds of the improved economic output of an industrialized economy.

What happened to those blacksmiths? Some probably ended up out of work and had to struggle to survive, while others likely transitioned their skills doing metalwork in the industrial sector.

All humans have value as humans and I believe that the vast majority have strong work ethic and a desire to support themselves and their family through work and discipline.

Nonetheless, as the economy changes rapidly, we find that we (industrialized nations) have lagged significantly when it comes to our educational system. Our modern schools still do many things the same way they were done in a one room schoolhouse.

There are many reasons why this happened -- I'd argue that the biggest one was the state takeover of education during the industrial era to free up more workers by providing free daycare (not education). So the root cause of worker displacement is connected with industrialization, but it is due to state monopoly power and the destruction of liberal educational ideals in favor of daycare and rudimentary skills training. In other words, we should not teach people a trade we should teach them how to learn for themselves.

Our educational system today is still very trade oriented, and that creates calcification in the economy and is ultimately a grave threat to national security.

But politicians will of course prefer to prop up dying factories in dead industries in exchange for primary votes rather than tackling the much harder problem of figuring out how first world education should work in 2018.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#59
post #45
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

>>>They simply are not a bad thing. Not being antagonistic hear - but your sentence reads like you meant it in absolute terms, as if they are never a good thing. That's quite a claim - can you elaborate on it? Your post gives a trivial example, would be great to hear your actual reasoning.

The "trade deficit" is simply a number that measures the value of exports minus the value of imports.

It has no relationship with the health of the economy whatsoever. Firms within an economy have their choice of whether to import inputs from domestic providers or foreign providers, and they choose the option that offers the best value.

Let's use the example of a company that is considering opening a 50K square foot call center for customer service. The company will decide whether it makes sense to open that call center in an expensive place like downtown San Francisco, but it may also consider opening it in a place that would be more affordable.

If you focus only on the call center workers in downtown San Francisco, it will look like perhaps a tariff should be created by the city of SF to prevent firms from opening call centers in Iowa. After all, where will those call center workers find jobs?

But think about the rest of the firm. Maybe with the money it saves by opening the call center in Iowa, it can open an R&D office in downtown SF instead. Maybe in a few years the R&D pays off and now the firm can hire 1000 more workers in SF for other jobs.

But if we rewind and consider the situation with tariffs. The firm still decides to open the call center in Iowa but now must pay a tariff, which reduces the profitability of the decision. Now it can't afford to open the R&D office and ends up a few years later going out of business.

Or, suppose that the tariff is high enough that the firm does open the call center in SF. Due to the costs there is still no money to open the R&D office and so the company still fails.

The counter-intuitive thing about economics is reasoning about counter-factual scenarios... all the things that might have happened if things had gone differently.

In the above example, SF loses the higher skilled R&D jobs due to the tariff and also loses the 1000 new jobs a few years later. But it's easy to ignore those since they are counter-factual. The politicians can point to the SF call center employees and say "See, the tariffs got these people jobs, look how we're helping the economy!"

But the truth is quite the opposite, the tariff prevented the company from having the capital to invest in R&D, cost the Iowa call center jobs AND the SF R&D jobs AND the 1000 other jobs that would have happened due to growth.

In a nutshell, the mindset that makes people think tariffs are a good idea is anchored on the idea that the economy is static and that someone is winning only at the expense of someone else losing. In the tariff supporter scenario, Iowa would have "won" if SF had not instituted those tariffs to keep the jobs at home.

I use SF and Iowa as an example here just to make the concept more simple and to remove the confounding ideology of nations being adversarial to one another. Trade makes otherwise adversarial nations into partners and allies, so you could substitute SF and Iowa for the US and Canada respectively.

Re: The Largest US Trading Partners All Put Higher Tariffs on the US Than Vice Versa

#60
post #33

For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form. Tariffs appeal to the naive idea that trade imbalances between two nations are a bad thing. They simply are not a bad thing. But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries. What real…

>For the benefit of HN readers, no serious economist supports tariffs in any form.

This is categorically wrong, many economists support tariffs as a way for countries to find relief from flooding or other anti-competitive practices.

In 2010, Paul Krugman (an economist who won a Nobel prize for this theories on international trade) called for a 25% tariffs on all Chinese imports [0].

>But due to the political history of tariffs it becomes possible for politicians to claim (falsely) that tariffs will benefit the economy, when in fact they are (at best) a handout to specific industries.

But on longer time horizons and some situations, it's hard to assert that tariffs are net negatives. Many countries use tariffs to encourage domestic industry - South Korea could have never created a domestic auto industry if they allowed Japanese and American car companies to freely sell cars in Korea. The tariffs that Koreans paid from the 1960s to the 1980s supported Hyundai - it's hard to imagine that Korea is worse off in 2018 because it created tariffs to encourage domestic auto production.

Functionally, China's IP and ownership rules are tariffs and they've been wildly successful for China. If China didn't strong arm IP and capital out of companies, they'd be worse off.

>What really boggles my mind about the groundswell of support for tariffs is that much of it is coming from people who would traditionally have frowned upon receiving welfare. Yet they are happy to receive it when it's called tariffs and also happy to receive bailout money when their industry is harmed by the tariffs.

The difference is that tariff beneficiaries have to work whereas welfare recipients don't (or won't) and that's matters to the working class who pays for the social safety net. Additionally, the taxes that support welfare are a lot less discretionary than participation in most markets affected by tariffs. If I really don't want to pay a steel tariff, I can buy items made out of other materials. If I really don't want to pay my taxes to support welfare, a person with a gun will eventually show up at my door.

>Put another way, tariffs are simply a way of introducing the government into economic transactions. If a foreign government foolishly decides to tax its citizens via a tariff on US goods, this harms the foreign citizens.

And it harms the US citizens who are deprived of business they otherwise would have received.

>When the US then plays tit-for-tat and adds its own tariff, this punishes American consumers in an attempt to harm foreign exporters.

Additionally it punishes foreign producers and gives us a way to negotiate our way to lower trade barriers.

>But I repeat, no serious economist (someone who studies the economy scientifically) supports tariffs.

Please stop asserting this, a cursory google search would reveal that a lot of economists support tariffs in limited circumstances and think they're an important tool for economic development.

>They are a political phenomenon and the rhetoric used to support them has no basis in reality.

Tell that to the Indian politicians who run and win on autarky-lite platforms.

>The understanding that tariffs are foolish is a universal among economists and is not remotely a partisan issue.

It's actually a very big schism between the orthodox economist view (that's primarily focused on total wealth) and heterodox views (one that's focused on the environment, the working class, etc.). You're right that most economists believe lower tariffs produce more global wealth, but many concede that some agents are made worse-off by international trade and this is the basis of a cost-benefit argument.

>It's one thing to want to grant welfare to a specific industry for some political reason, but completely another to introduce a distorting factor like a tariff.

They're not that distinct, tariffs can be a way to grant welfare to a specific industry.

>I have a trade deficit with my grocer, for example. Why? Because I chose to exchange money for groceries. How is this bad? The same applies to nations.

That's a gross oversimplification. If you want to change your life and think about how to accrue wealth, it'd make sense to look at your spending and figure out how to reduce your costs and increase your income. Economic agents can do both with development - you could open your own grocery store, you could grow your own food, etc. It's very hard to compete with established players and you might have to spend extra money to compete at first just to get up the learning curve. In practice, it means something like saving 10% of what you spend at the grocery to buy seeds and farming equipment and gradually transitioning from grocery-bought food to self-made food. We can argue about whether it makes sense to change tomorrow, you have to change something today. Tariffs are a way to change the prices faced by consumers and the competitive landscape faced by producers, in some situations they can help agents achieve things they wouldn't have been Able to otherwise.

[0]: http://www.idealtaxes.com/post3079.shtml

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