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False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

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Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#201

Post by reaperducer »

randomdata wrote: post #140
reaperducer wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds good in writing, but it doesn’t seem to work in real life for some reason. Two of the cities I’ve lived in have been places with several large businesses focused on a single non-factory industry. They could never get enough workers, so demand for labor was high and because of that so were wages. The prevailing attitude among the very local teens (2nd generation plus) was “Why should I go to college when I…

> The result is that most of the locals are pretty dumb. It is concerning to me that after approximately 18 years on earth and 12 years of schooling that the locals are still dumb. But as little as two to four more years of school can transform them into smart, well rounded, people capable of understanding complex social issues related to their city and beyond. It seems the real shame is not that college is expensive…

It seems the real shame is not that college is expensive, but that we've wasted the time of our youngsters.

I can't disagree with this. It's been a problem for a very long time.

When I first went to college many moons ago, even back then there were classes for the incoming students who needed to be brought up to college level. These classes were always full.

It always seemed to me that community colleges should fill that gap. Back then, community colleges were considered a joke and just a glorified vocational school. If that's changed, I'm glad. But I feel like if more money and effort were put into community colleges they could shed that stigma and provide a usable college education for everyone.

I was at an education conference a couple of years ago, and according to the speakers there, what's happening behind the scenes is the seeds are being planted at a high level to make community college a guaranteed (free) right in America, the way elementary and high school is. The reasoning is that back when K-12 was established as the norm, that was the normal education one needed to get by in life. Now a two-year degree is the minimum, and the government should step up and add that as well.

Naturally, the problem is always paying for it. But there were some people positing that more educated people get higher-paying jobs and pay more taxes, and somehow it will all work out that way.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#202

Post by isk517 »

bedhead wrote: post #125
jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

Ideally any company or organization that requires educated employees.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#203

Post by greedo »

firic wrote: post #45
epmaybe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools shoul…

why should a college offer therapists? that is not their job. a college should have a medic for emergencies and for all other things the student can go to a doctor's office that specializes in their issue

The role of a college has expanded far past just being a collection of faculty, dorms and classrooms. Modern universities and colleges are expected to provide an "experience" with accommodations on par with a fancy resort or spa. And eventually Pournelle's Iron Law takes over.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#204

Post by reaperducer »

satsuma wrote: post #189
randomdata wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The result is that most of the locals are pretty dumb. It is concerning to me that after approximately 18 years on earth and 12 years of schooling that the locals are still dumb. But as little as two to four more years of school can transform them into smart, well rounded, people capable of understanding complex social issues related to their city and beyond. It seems the real shame is not that college is expensive…

american high schools aren't proper schools in the sense that they educate their students for life ahead, they're day care. they encourage rote memorization and regurgitation of data instead of critical thinking and processing of the world around us. if you memorize and regurgitate to a passable standard (which is set quite low, at least in the rural public school i attended) they shake your hand and send you out on…

american high schools aren't proper schools in the sense that they educate their students for life ahead, they're day care. they encourage rote memorization and regurgitation of data instead of critical thinking and processing of the world around us.

While this is anecdotally common, I can't say it's universal.

Where I went to school we were taught to think. I didn't appreciate it fully at the time, but I do now.

We were taught that knowing things is great, but it's equially important to know why things are the way they are. To this end, we had a lot of classes in history, geography, philosophy (a little) and civics.

Even in elementary school, we went through endless drills called "Fact or opinion" where we were presented with everything from single sentences to headlines to paragraphs, and learned all about weasel words and hidden meanings in the English language. At the time I hated it, and it was one of many things I never thought I'd ever need as an adult.

Today the schools need to teach that more than ever, but I doubt any still do. Even the ones I went to.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#205

Post by michaelt »

scarface74 wrote: post #105
paulie_a wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I didn't want to add more any more debt. And quite frankly at the time I figured anyone I would would want to work for would not care...sure that piece of paper on the wall is cute but it's a meaningless trophy after a while. What have you actually done and how can operate in a team environment is more important The "prestige" of the degree. Meh

She isn’t a “terrible” person for suggesting it. It was the most logical thing for her to suggest knowing statistically the lifetime salary outcome for someone with a degree vs. no degree. Her job is to give general advice that works for “90% of the people 90% of the time”.

  It was the most logical thing for her to suggest
That's far from obvious without knowing the specifics of the case; putting $25,000 of tuition on a credit card with a 24% APR, could get mighty expensive.

A student might be better advised to take a leave of absence, or finish up their degree part-time, or transfer to a less expensive or in-state school.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#206

Post by RightMillennial »

radlad wrote: post #171
glenneroo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adjusted for inflation: $20,000 in 1988 → $42,601.69 in 2018

Today, you can expect at least $200,000 for 4 years of medical school.

And that's just for tuition. That doesn't including living expenses.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#207

Post by mrguyorama »

Goronmon wrote: post #141
bedhead wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit?

Who is going to lend tens of thousands of dollars to an 18 year old with no income, no assets, and no credit? So, just to be clear 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in dischargeable loans is ridiculous, but 18 year olds getting tens of thousands in non-dischargeable loans makes total sense? I mean, I understand why if you are a person making money off student loans, the latter is a great situation to have. But f…

I think you're missing the point.

I believe they intend to mean that we should fix this problem without irreparably screwing over an entire generation of potential college students

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#208

Post by firic »

majewsky wrote: post #173
firic wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being serious? Ambulances cannot arrive before in house medics. There are many cases where someone could have been saved if cpr or bandaging started before the ambulance arrived. I don't know of any case where someone was so suicidal that they needed to talk to someone (and wanted to) immediately or else they would commit suicide. Psychiatry and financial education is not an emergency service that is needed i…

Would you agree that every apartment block should have their own medic on duty then?

that would depend on the size of them. typically colleges have large campuses with lots of people "doing" stuff there. in apartments they are not so full in the middle of the day and during the night, not much happens. if however it was a big apartment complex with a doorman and elevator operator then they should have some medical person on call. in my synagogue we have a first aid kit and during large prayers there is someone who knows how to use it. that seems like a good idea

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#209

Post by mrguyorama »

foldr wrote: post #107
vertex-four wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, in the U.K., if you’re interested in learning at your own pace, every university has at least some form of part-time course, local FE colleges do part time courses regularly, and there’s the Open University if you want to work towards a degree part-time. This is an American problem, not one to do with the concept of being able to prove you’ve completed an education.

This is missing the point. There are plenty of flexible educational opportunities in the US too (e.g. community colleges). Both the UK and the US (and I say this as someone who's taught at universities in both countries) face the problem that the majority of people going to college now are going just because they need a degree to get a job, not because they have any interest in learning anything. Education is a publi…

Part time education in america is still expensive

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#210

Post by scarface74 »

michaelt wrote: post #205
scarface74 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She isn’t a “terrible” person for suggesting it. It was the most logical thing for her to suggest knowing statistically the lifetime salary outcome for someone with a degree vs. no degree. Her job is to give general advice that works for “90% of the people 90% of the time”.

It was the most logical thing for her to suggest That's far from obvious without knowing the specifics of the case; putting $25,000 of tuition on a credit card with a 24% APR, could get mighty expensive. A student might be better advised to take a leave of absence, or finish up their degree part-time, or transfer to a less expensive or in-state school.

- Yes. But if it gets to onerous. There are ways to get out of credit card debt - see above. There is no way to get out of student loan debt.

- most colleges don’t take transfer credits for junior/senior level classes

- even if you go part time, most schools charge fixed fees per quarter + per credit hour. That would make it more expensive.

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