Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat • Hacker News Board

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#141

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #110

CamTin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prosecutors might only take those cases, but they're not the ones making arrests. Police are. Once you are already in jail then, under the proposed scheme, the prosecutor's options become 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages, 2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages, 3) take it to trial and win, which is expensive but at lea…

Not necessarily. We could decide that being in jail prior to seeing a judge or magistrate that sets bail does not count as wrongful imprisonment; it's the period of time during which the state has to decide if they really want to follow through on charging this individual, and if so, wether or not they want to take the risk of wrongful imprisonment. We could say that only time after a judge or magistrate has made the…

We couldn't do that in the US. Some police departments have an unwritten policy of arresting people late on a Friday, so that they can be held the maximum amount of time before getting an arraignment hearing, where the charges may be summarily dropped because they were bogus to begin with. If you decide such arrests cannot trigger compensation for false imprisonment, the practice will not only continue, but increase, as a form of legal harassment. I'd give up the first hour in jail for free. That's plenty of time to put together an argument justifying the arrest, given that the arresting officer should have already had a reason prior to making it, and being an hour late is usually not ruinous. Either the lateness is justified by the arrest, or the fact of the arrest itself eclipses the offense of the tardiness.

What if there were a "speedy trial" clock? It ticks down faster (6x) between arrest and arraignment, when the accused is held in jail awaiting their initial hearing. It counts down more slowly (x/6) when the accused is released and preparing for trial. And it counts down at the baseline rate when the accused is arraigned and held in jail awaiting trial. The defense, and only the defense, can request that the time to trial be extended. If the case is dropped unilaterally, or the trial verdict is not guilty, the state is on the hook for the amount of time counted down off the trial clock.

So if the cops arrest you on Friday at 5 PM for the express purpose of keeping you in jail for the maximum amount of time before seeing a judge or magistrate on Monday morning, they piss off the prosecutors, who counted down 2 weeks off their clock for the 2.5 days spent in jail awaiting the initial hearing. And if the judge denies release because the prosecutors claim the accused is a danger or flight risk, they have to back up that assertion by throwing more resources into the pending trial before the clock runs out. Maybe the clock allows 30 days for someone arraigned within hours and held without bail, and 180 days for someone released pending trial.

If you don't want to bind up your court calendar, you release everyone who isn't dangerous, put extra effort into processing those held in jail pending trial--possibly preempting trials on lesser crimes--and try to make more deals when too many trials are running their clocks out at the same time. Prosecutors that lose too many cases to "failure to provide a speedy trial" motions and pay too many of the subsequent false imprisonment claims risk losing their jobs after the next election.

The New York system has a similar clock, but they allow the prosecution to pause it by engaging in dubious and deceptive practices. Not a good model. The problem is that the prosecution side gets no negative feedback for egregiously failing to honor the rights of the accused. They don't get checked when they commit an obvious wrong.

At the least, this would encourage more municipalities to have an on-call weekend magistrate.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#142

Post by throw2016 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

There is an incestuous network of profit driven companies who benefit from this. Apart from the bail bonds and insurance companies detailed in the article there are also private prisons.

All these interests are perfectly aligned to lobby and fund campaigns and 'grow their business'. Their presence and funding of DA and judges is a clear conflict of interest. This is basically a synergy of corruption and exploitation.

Corporate drones and funded economists go on about 'freedom' and this is a perfect example of how markets can produce toxic outcomes for individuals. Other developed countries do not mix up private interests and profit motives in their justice system and do not have problems of this scale.

But the worst thing for individuals is once tainted, even wrongly, it becomes difficult to get back to get back to normal life, be it employment, housing or credit.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#143

Post by lghh » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

test6554 wrote: post #116

dionidium wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ack, sorry for being so unclear. I was thinking of the American underclasses most likely to be caught up in local jails and unable to afford bail.

Yea, if you could get $22,000 just for being detained in the US, there would be whole professions dedicated to setting people up for crimes while also leaving enough evidence of their innocence to get them acquitted.

I would rather have a system that people not in a position of power can abuse (setting up systems to get intentional "wrongful convictions") than one where people in power can abuse it (the current bail and prison system).

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#144

Post by cs02rm0 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

bdhess wrote: post #82

cs02rm0 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal should be to persuade everyone not to speed in the first place.

How do you persuade “everyone” when the primary deterrent is a fixed fine that doesn’t scale relative to lifestyle?

So now we're not looking at fines in relation to income but lifestyle?

I just think you cannot scale fines in relation to income/lifestyle/anything else financially. You can scale it, but you can't hit people with different incomes, assets, etc. in the same fashion, which ultimately smells of a bad system to me.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#145

Post by cs02rm0 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

PostOnce wrote: post #95

cs02rm0 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal should be to persuade everyone not to speed in the first place.

you keep talking in dollars and not hours if the fine is "one week of income" and you don't want to lose a week then you won't speed if a speeding ticket was 5 cents everyone would speed every day... and this is the status quo for the rich since the fine is to their income what five cents is to most others so we fine people enough that it affects them in a proportionate way to make the likelihood of changing their be…

Dollars is roughly proportional to hours for the guy at the bottom of income levels. I'm not sure it is for people at the top, choosing which assets to liquidate in which year.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#146

Post by refurb » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

bdhess wrote: post #77

refurb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being held in jail prior to a decision of guilty/not guilty wouldn’t be wrongful imprisonment.

Why not? How can this thread make sense in the context of the article otherwise?

Based on the article, I'd say the problem is the fact it took 6 months for the court to actually hear the case. People have a right to due process.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#147

Post by arethuza » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

cs02rm0 wrote: post #144

bdhess wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you persuade “everyone” when the primary deterrent is a fixed fine that doesn’t scale relative to lifestyle?

So now we're not looking at fines in relation to income but lifestyle? I just think you cannot scale fines in relation to income/lifestyle/anything else financially. You can scale it, but you can't hit people with different incomes, assets, etc. in the same fashion, which ultimately smells of a bad system to me.

So what would you recommend?

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#148

Post by EvilEndures » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

CamTin wrote: post #99

EvilEndures wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prosecutors already only take cases they think they can win via plea bargain. Part of why convinction rates are so high is Prosecutors ignore any case they might lose or the defendant can afford a quality lawyer who might cast reasonable doubt on the verdict. I doubt repayment for wrongful imprisonment would make that worse.

Prosecutors might only take those cases, but they're not the ones making arrests. Police are. Once you are already in jail then, under the proposed scheme, the prosecutor's options become 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages, 2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages, 3) take it to trial and win, which is expensive but at lea…

> 1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages,

This isn't quite correct. They have the ability to hold you for 24 hours without formally arresting/imprisoning you.

The prosecutor would have a 5th option (drop charges and release the person within the first 24 hours). That is more likely than #1 and #2.

> Again, I'm not saying reform is impossible, just playing devil's advocate on this particular proposal.

Understood but a 24 hour hold wouldn't be affected by this proposal as far as I'm aware.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#149

Post by logfromblammo » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

dvtrn wrote: post #130

deelowe wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people realize that when you pay a bondsman, you don't get that money back. Basically, you pay a bondsman to post bail for you. The bondsman then assumes the flight risk. Assuming you don't skip out of town, the bondsman gets to keep the money. Additionally, most jurisdictions don't allow you to post your own bail until certain conditions are met, but a bondsman can post bail immediately. This results i…

Similar situation where having $25 saved my butt from having to sit in jail three states away from where I lived after a petty drug possession arrest (a little baggie of cannabis fell out of my glove compartment while scrounging for an insurance card). It's a pretty long story, but ultimately I paid the last $25 I had in my pocket to a clerk, and was released upon my own recognizance (Personal Recognizance). Ultimate…

Keep your registration and insurance card in the door pocket or clipped to your sun shade, and keep your glove box locked while driving. If you must transport contraband, keep it in a closed, opaque container without identifying markings on the outside.

If you have current insurance, but can't find your proof of insurance card during the stop, just say loudly and clearly that you're insured with [YOUR INSURER], take the ticket, and mail a copy of your insurance information to the prosecutor afterward. If the prosecutor won't drop the charge, plead not guilty and request discovery for the squad car camera recording and all the information the cop had available about you or your vehicle from their in-car computer at the time of the stop.

In all likelihood, the cop's in-car computer already showed whether you were truthful about being insured or not, and they just continue to demand paperwork because it's an easy way to issue tickets that usually don't get contested. It's a money game, and it encourages the justice system to prey on those who can least afford to fight back.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#150

Post by FireBeyond » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

drivingmenuts wrote: post #108

dragonwriter wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US, without any doubt, protects the rights of accused person FAR better than ANY European country. Just ask Julian Assange Since Assange’s entire excuse for his flight from justice is the fear that the whole Swedish and British process has been a pretext for being dragged to the US for an unfair trial, I don't think he'll back you. Of course, he's also completely nuts. If the US wanted him from the UK, we'd jus…

He's not hiding in the UK - he's hiding in Ecuador, with whom we do not have an extradition treaty, apparently. An embassy is the sovereign soil of it's own country. Otherwise, we could just storm the place with overwhelming force and take him. Ecuador lacks the means to effectively stop us. Note: I am NOT suggesting we do this.

> An embassy is the sovereign soil of it's own country.

Apropos of anything else, no, it is not.