Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

globalcitizen.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 184 posts

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#91

Post by cimmanom »

Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

Being held before trial is pretty much never interpreted as wrongful imprisonment, even if the suspect is acquitted.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#92

Post by dionidium »

captainbland wrote: post #2

I think that if there are financial penalties - or similar in the case of bail - they have to be adjusted to means (don't get me wrong, this can be a challenge in itself). Otherwise you're basically saying that something is legal for the rich who could easily make the bail or the fine, but illegal for somebody poor who cannot make the fine which can have ever worse consequences. Why should that be?

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." -- Anatole France

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#93

Post by EvilEndures »

CamTin wrote: post #59
hvidgaard wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a fair take on it. If you wrongfully imprison anyone, they get compensation. If all evidence points to them, but they was found not guilty, then they were wrongfully imprisoned and the intent and "why" doesn't really matter to that person.

This has its own potential problems. Prosecutors might be under even more pressure to get convictions or plea bargains, since the alternative, if somebody is already arrested and awaiting trial, is that their bosses (ultimately elected officials) have to shell out public money for a wrongful imprisonment case. Not saying the idea doesn't have merit, but all the moving parts and bizarre incentives of this system make…

Prosecutors already only take cases they think they can win via plea bargain. Part of why convinction rates are so high is Prosecutors ignore any case they might lose or the defendant can afford a quality lawyer who might cast reasonable doubt on the verdict.

I doubt repayment for wrongful imprisonment would make that worse.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#94

Post by kyoob »

dionidium wrote: post #90
charlesdm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$22,000 is a pittance however, for five months of wrongful imprisonment (in my view)

Sadly, it's considerably more than most of them would have earned in five months on the outside.

Most of who? Danes?

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#95

Post by PostOnce »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #37
arethuza wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the goal is presumably to try and persuade him not to speed again?

The goal should be to persuade everyone not to speed in the first place.

you keep talking in dollars and not hours

if the fine is "one week of income" and you don't want to lose a week then you won't speed

if a speeding ticket was 5 cents everyone would speed every day... and this is the status quo for the rich since the fine is to their income what five cents is to most others

so we fine people enough that it affects them in a proportionate way to make the likelihood of changing their behavior equal, rather than only changing the behavior of the poor

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#96

Post by Svip »

cimmanom wrote: post #91
Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

Being held before trial is pretty much never interpreted as wrongful imprisonment, even if the suspect is acquitted.

Well, in most cases people don't get taken into custody (I believe that is the proper term?), because the police does not deem them a security risk until their trial commences. But if the police decides to take you into custody (effectively imprisoning you before the verdict), and you are acquitted, you are entitled to compensation in Denmark.

The thinking is that the state should not be able to do it on a whim without consequence of their decisions.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#97

Post by dionidium »

kyoob wrote: post #94
dionidium wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, it's considerably more than most of them would have earned in five months on the outside.

Most of who? Danes?

Ack, sorry for being so unclear. I was thinking of the American underclasses most likely to be caught up in local jails and unable to afford bail.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#98

Post by nemetroid »

candiodari wrote: post #51
jacobr wrote: post #24

Sweden actually has a similar problem even without the bail system. Most people get released awaiting trial, depending on severity of the crime, risk of influencing the case, etc. The ones who don't end up incarcerated with way worse conditions than regular prisons while waiting for the trial. You might end up with a sentence of 1 year after already spending most of it in an insitution with limited visitation rights,…

All European countries have a system that is sort-of a "reverse bail" problem. You can become a "civil party" to a complaint that you submit to the police. If you have money, you can force that complaint to get before a criminal judge, who is forced to ask you (the civil party) why you want this person criminally punished (e.g. jail), and listen to your response. So poor people cannot complain about things like gover…

> All European countries

> criminal judge

Almost all of Europe uses civil law, where there is no distinction between civil and criminal courts.

> But a rich person can drag you in front of a criminal court for not wiping the pavement in front of your apartment often enough.

> This is a bail system. The money you put down, you get back if the person gets convicted.

This is far removed from reality as far as I am aware. Please provide sources.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#99

Post by CamTin »

EvilEndures wrote: post #93
CamTin wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has its own potential problems. Prosecutors might be under even more pressure to get convictions or plea bargains, since the alternative, if somebody is already arrested and awaiting trial, is that their bosses (ultimately elected officials) have to shell out public money for a wrongful imprisonment case. Not saying the idea doesn't have merit, but all the moving parts and bizarre incentives of this system make…

Prosecutors already only take cases they think they can win via plea bargain. Part of why convinction rates are so high is Prosecutors ignore any case they might lose or the defendant can afford a quality lawyer who might cast reasonable doubt on the verdict. I doubt repayment for wrongful imprisonment would make that worse.

Prosecutors might only take those cases, but they're not the ones making arrests. Police are. Once you are already in jail then, under the proposed scheme, the prosecutor's options become

1) let you out (drop charges) and expose the public purse to wrongful imprisonment damages,

2) take it to trial and lose, also exposing the public purse to the same damages,

3) take it to trial and win, which is expensive but at least looks good for the prosecutor, or

4) plea you out to a lesser charge, preferably one that carries a penalty of at least as long in jail as you've already served, so as not to expose the public purse to those damages

The last option is probably the best-looking one for a prosecutor. It's cheap, quick, and doesn't look bad for their bosses. I would think we would get more 4s and less 1s than the current system. 1s are good for the accused. 4s are very bad, but not the worst.

Again, I'm not saying reform is impossible, just playing devil's advocate on this particular proposal.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#100

Post by dragonwriter »

titzer wrote: post #4

This is horrible. Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court). That would allow poorer people to keep their jobs and still be present for court dates. Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for.

> Instead of bail, they should just have steeper fines for failure to appear and yet on the flipside the same guarantees afforded to jury duty as far as employment (i.e. can't be fired for having to appear in court).

There's already a fairly well proven alternative to cash bail used in D.C. and some other jurisdictions: if someone is bailable after assessment for flight risk, etc., they get appropriate conditions for pre-trial monitoring and supervision, as bail terms, with no cash payment.

Post reply on HN