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Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

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Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#61

Post by cs02rm0 »

skate22 wrote: post #12
cs02rm0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one person gets their life savings cleared out for a $100 speeding fine, how do you equate that financial pain to Bill Gates? Why should Bill Gates be punished more in the same situation for having put the work in to build a successful company? You end up with silly (IMHO) situations like someone getting a $290k fine in Switzerland for 85mph in a 50 zone. 6 months in jail for someone who can't afford a $1k bail is…

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding. The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding..

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding.

Of course. But I don't think we can sensibly, or ethically, charge him an amount that would. How much would deter him to the same degree? $1m probably wouldn't cut it either.

Instead, surely we should either accept that and charge everyone the same absolute amount or find other more equitable ways of deterring him. License points, driving bans, community service, prison time, anything that isn't just taking obscene amounts of money simply because the guy has worked smart and earns more.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#62

Post by rayiner »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35
Svip wrote: post #25

Is it possible to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment in the US? I know it is in Denmark. The logic being that it shouldn't be 'free' for the state to imprison someone wrongfully. In Denmark, you seek compensation after the fact. The exact compensation will depend on several variables, so I cannot give an exact figure. But I did find a case where a man was wrongfully imprisoned for five months, and got 141,000…

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

EDIT: Since OP was apparently talking about pre-conviction jailing, my comment was non-responsive to his point, and likely yours as well.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#63

Post by genericid »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #37
arethuza wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the goal is presumably to try and persuade him not to speed again?

The goal should be to persuade everyone not to speed in the first place.

How would that even make a difference?

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#64

Post by skate22 »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #61
skate22 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding. The goal of a speeding ticket is not to collect $50, it is to save lives by detering people from speeding..

A $50 ticket is not going to deter bill gates from speeding. Of course. But I don't think we can sensibly, or ethically, charge him an amount that would. How much would deter him to the same degree? $1m probably wouldn't cut it either. Instead, surely we should either accept that and charge everyone the same absolute amount or find other more equitable ways of deterring him. License points, driving bans, community se…

all of those other things you listed are already in place and cost people time & dignity (which enough money can offset the cost of)

It needs to sting for everyone, not just the poor.

Do you reject higher tax brackets for the wealthy under that same line of reasoning?

Surely wealth is an important factor in deciding what people owe to society

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#66

Post by dnomad »

StreamBright wrote: post #39
arethuza wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How likely are those people to vote Republican though? If there is little change of that then introducing a harsh new law might win more votes than it would lose.

I am not sure, I just wanted to point out that this white vs minorities narrative is stupid. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/05/trump-prison...

How is it a "narrative"? The widespread and coordinated use of drug laws to persecute minorities is a matter of historical fact. Are you disputing the historical facts? Are you familiar with the rigorous academic research on this subject? You might want to start here [1]. Calling something a "narrative" doesn't actually change anything, let alone the facts.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/680751.The_Marijuana_Con...

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#67

Post by dustingetz »

deckiedan wrote: post #44
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

If the system is broken/to blame, then the system should be sued. What if the state had to pay compensation in cases of "honest" mistakes? Then the state would start having to try harder to not let innocents get imprisoned.

Read 48 Laws of Power to understand why it doesn't work like that. The constitution, checks and balances, regulations etc are an attempt to engineer the natural forces of power into more productive directions, but, "there are no hard lines in nature", and all attempts to engineer hard lines will show strain at the limits, for example this square wave is actually a sum of curves: https://archive.cnx.org/resources/0d187381962fb659307c284776...

"A would-be reformer who wants to improve social welfare by changing people's behavior to a better equilibrium must take care to identify a social plan that is in fact a Nash equilibrium, so that nobody can profit by unilaterally deviating from the plan." Meyerson – full quote here: http://www.dustingetz.com/:web-3.0/

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#68

Post by zimablue »

StreamBright wrote: post #22
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flight risk is really not as high as the system is designed for. The system is rigged against the minorities. Look why cannabis was criminalized in the first place - to target blacks and hippies ( https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-... ). As a politician, keep as many of 'em in jails as you can, thus showing the white population you're "tough on crime" and at the same time filling the coffe…

This white against minorities narrative breaks down once you understand that ~80% of minorities are DNC voters[1] and Bill Clinton was the number one guy who f*ed them over the most with the infamous Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994[2]. 1. http://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-aff... 2. In a speech at an NAACP convention in Philadelphia in July, Clinton acknowledged that toughe…

The lack of options/failure of the political system does not disprove the narrative that there were/are racial motives behind some of the systems we live with today.

"It can't be whites vs blacks, politicians that black people voted for did it too".

When you actually write out your argument it doesn't make any sense. What if they were given two options, both of whom would have continued racist policies? There's also a phenomenon whereby politicians identified with a specific "outsider" group have a lot more pressure (and ability) to defy the interests or stereotypes of that group. H Clinton under a lot more pressure to be hawkish to defy weak women narrative. Obama under a lot more scrutiny about anything that could be seen as a handout to African Americans. Politicians from the left often ripping up regulations, because they sedate the left who would have prevented right candidates from doing it.

Basically, it's way more complicated and your argument doesn't hold water.

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#69

Post by ataturk »

thechao wrote: post #38
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is but it is extremely rare. These are systemic problems, caused by the construction of the system itself and not due to bad actors. One problem is to have a successful suit against wrongful imprisonment, you have to prove intent. If somebody accidentally imprisoned you acting in good faith, the idea is that people make mistakes. There is automatic protection built into the system to allow prosecutors and LE to do…

I understand the situation as described. I do feel that many Americans (including myself) would be happier without intent: the imprisonment of a free person is a fundamental violation of constitutional rights and, regardless of intent, is a wrong, which should lead to compensation.

[dead]

Re: Bail has become a way to lock up the poor regardless of guilt or threat

#70

Post by zimablue »

snarfy wrote: post #54

Financial punishments should be required by law to be a percentage of your worth/income instead of an arbitrary number. $100 fine can be devastating if you are living paycheck to paycheck. For others it's a bar tab. Fixed fees disproportionately hurt the poor.

Setting that scale is nigh on impossible though. Young people with zero in assets and incredibly rich parents (asset-rich not income). Young people with no assets and poor parents but massive future earning potential (academic or sports stars). Old people with massive material wealth in the value of their houses who will be incredibly unwilling (and make a great newspaper headline) to move it.
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