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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#331

Post by cromulent »

nostrademons wrote: post #286
pure_ambition wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New England will probably be the last region to get decent renewable adoption. Solar panels don't work as well because they're far north and get a number of cloudy days... Wrong. Most of Europe (especially Germany) is actually at a higher latitude than New England.

...but tends to be windier. My understanding is that renewable use in Germany is largely driven by wind power.

Germany has 5 times as much solar capacity as wind power, and the highest PV watts-per-capita in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#332

Post by legulere »

ksolanki wrote: post #278
eloff wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

Easier solution: The net frequency is already used for load control. Require consumer devices to react to it by law. No internet or setup needed

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#333

Post by markvdb »

gamegoblin wrote: post #149
yayana wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Pumped Hydroelectric Storage is what you are looking for. I've seen a few of them here in Switzerland. I think many were originally built out with the train system's grid for it's reliably scheduled low and high capacity times. http://energystorage.org/energy-storage/technologies/pumped-...

Does Belgium (OPs example) have the geography necessary to support pumped hydro? Your example, Switzerland, is significantly more mountainous than Belgium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coo-Trois-Ponts_Hydroelectric_...

It has 1164MW capacity, with ~1000GWh/year supplied.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#335

Post by jillesvangurp »

This is not a problem but a huge opportunity. Instead of shutting down capacity, they need to find ways to utilize it. There are plenty of things you can do with energy.

Water desalination, splitting water into h2 and o2, etc. all take lots of energy. California has a huge water shortage and apparently too much electricity.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#336

Post by dm319 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #335

This is not a problem but a huge opportunity. Instead of shutting down capacity, they need to find ways to utilize it. There are plenty of things you can do with energy. Water desalination, splitting water into h2 and o2, etc. all take lots of energy. California has a huge water shortage and apparently too much electricity.

Or use it to remove CO2?

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#337

Post by dalore »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #335

This is not a problem but a huge opportunity. Instead of shutting down capacity, they need to find ways to utilize it. There are plenty of things you can do with energy. Water desalination, splitting water into h2 and o2, etc. all take lots of energy. California has a huge water shortage and apparently too much electricity.

Also cryptocurrency. People are complaining about the huge amounts of energy being wasted by it. But if prices are negative, and coming from green sources, then it's not an issue.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#338

Post by hvidgaard »

undreren wrote: post #325
hvidgaard wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at a tour of Skærbækværket many years ago, and as I remember it, when you produce power, you need to be able to control the voltage somehow. If there is a surplus of power and you cannot turn down production, you need to dump it or the voltage will go up, destroying electrical systems. One of the simplest ways to do this is to heat water, and when you have well established district heating it's almost a no brai…

It's a nobrainer, but the electric kettles are rather expensive and are usually therefore only bought to ensure production capacity in the case that the powerplant's own kettle malfunctions. Besides, district heating produced on power from the grid is taxed as if produced on coal, as the power has no traceability. This makes it really expensive, unless you are directly hooked up to a solar or windfarm. That's the law…

Ahh, it doesn't make much sense to install it away from a powerplant. It captures waste heat and electricity, where as one elsewhere would only be able to capture excess electricity.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#339

Post by Shoh3pif »

undreren wrote: post #325
hvidgaard wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at a tour of Skærbækværket many years ago, and as I remember it, when you produce power, you need to be able to control the voltage somehow. If there is a surplus of power and you cannot turn down production, you need to dump it or the voltage will go up, destroying electrical systems. One of the simplest ways to do this is to heat water, and when you have well established district heating it's almost a no brai…

It's a nobrainer, but the electric kettles are rather expensive and are usually therefore only bought to ensure production capacity in the case that the powerplant's own kettle malfunctions. Besides, district heating produced on power from the grid is taxed as if produced on coal, as the power has no traceability. This makes it really expensive, unless you are directly hooked up to a solar or windfarm. That's the law…

> district heating produced on power from the grid is taxed as if produced on coal, as the power has no traceability.

Sounds like there is room for improvement. E.g. an agreement with an energy provider and tracking when it was used on demand as a sink for excess energy instead of base-rate heating.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#340

Post by kasey_junk »

ksolanki wrote: post #278
eloff wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

This is insightful. The solution is probably to have a spot market for electricity that is accessible via an API so that smart AC or fridge or electric car charger can make use of it. This will encourage market for devices that can utilize the lower spot prices dynamically and keep the things more efficient overall (in steady state).

Rainforest Automation sells a little Linux appliance that reads smart meter data from your energy meter. Some providers, (including mine - ComEd) provide the spot price via that meter. The Rainforest device has an api both cloud & local.

Whenever I get a couple of bored minutes I go and update a little go library I have to work with it https://github.com/kklipsch/reagle

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