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Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

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Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#71
post #5

> "And would I want to work on yet another language, knowing I’ve already solved the interesting problems?" Sometimes this happens to me too, where I want to scratch an itch, and I try to do it by writing real software and using it. In general I have found that to be a bad idea. For those I prefer writing throw-away software, and only writing real software when it's "boring" but useful work.

When I started Leaf it was to scratch an itch. It was really only when the motivation dropped that I tried to find ways to use it, to renew my interest in pursuing it.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#72
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Such as? We are always looking for for things that get in the way of use.

Under "unavailable features" https://dlang.org/spec/betterc.html#consequences 3, 4, and 5 are all pretty sore points. 2 would be as well if it weren't extremely likely that for any game you create roll some sort of reflection system. It would be a sore spot for small projects. 3 - No access to classes and polymorphism is a bit of a downer. Although I'm a big believer of data-oriented design, I think there are still m…

It seems to me like you should just be using D, not "Better C-style D"? All those features are not in BetterC because they need a garbage collector, but they are of course in D proper. For smaller projects, I'd recommend just ignoring the GC until you run into actual issues with it, then optimizing for the specific issues.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#73
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a private endeavour, whether he finishes or not is completely up to him. When he puts it out for all to see, this then changes the dynamic under which he is moving forward. If he had said he was stopping due to life commitments or family situations, etc, then these kinds of things take priority, as they should. No problems or issues should arise from that. But he has stated that he is giving up because it now inv…

A more charitable explanation is (in his words), "it’s no longer fulfilling my goals, and it’s not as fun as it once was." When I look at it from his point of view, I feel quite sorry for him. The language's forum has 9 posts in the last calendar year. 4 of those are him solving a problem using Leaf. Then, I check out the status page and realize that, for all the work he has done, Leaf is still in a very primitive st…

Thank you.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a private endeavour, whether he finishes or not is completely up to him. When he puts it out for all to see, this then changes the dynamic under which he is moving forward. If he had said he was stopping due to life commitments or family situations, etc, then these kinds of things take priority, as they should. No problems or issues should arise from that. But he has stated that he is giving up because it now inv…

^ I don't see it as indicating undesirable character at all. I read the piece as more an indication that the guy knows when to cut his losses and stop allocating resources to unprofitable activity. Which to me, from a business perspective, is a sign of someone with their head screwed on straight. I also don't grasp the logic behind the notion that once a creator shows his work -- or work-in-progress -- to the public…

> I also don't grasp the logic behind the notion that once a creator shows his work -- or work-in-progress -- to the public that he is somehow bound by duty, honor, respect for his 'followers', or some other compelling consideration, to finish that work.

You can show off your work in any way that you want. You are also not bound by duty or anything else to finish that work. However, if you are putting it out there for other to see and or use, at least say that this may or may not be useful in some way. To cover yourself, you could say that it will be a work in progress and that the progress will move in fits and starts as you have time to devote to it. At that point, there will never be a need to say that you are giving up on it.

Bad comparison with Beethoven. But to answer your question, if he had said that this is the first movement and may have a potential to be completed if the Duke commissions it, then it doesn't reflect badly on him when the Duke doesn't commission it.

It is a matter of what expectation you are creating in those who are viewing your work. If you are saying that it is there as an example of something, then so it is. But if you go out and say "here is the bee's knees", and then you decide that it is no longer worth your while because the amount of work is now too much, then you have created the problem for yourself.

There is a project called Axiom, which has inspired me to look at my own code and projects in a different light. But to follow in the footsteps presented by Axiom in my own projects involves a lot of tedious hard work. The benefit that I see is that anyone who comes after me and is interested in what I have done will be able to follow. That "anyone" may only ever be me, so be it.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. Sometimes it's not about the destination but about experiencing the journey. From the post it seems like the author extracted the value they wanted to extract over the years. Knowing when to give up is difficult, especially when you've sunk a lot of cost into the project and feel like you have to finish it. The thing is, you don't have to and it's perfectly acceptable to put it on hold indefinitely. In th…

The problem here is that the project was made public for others to use/view. If someone wants to do a private project that impacts no-one else, it is then completely up to them as to whether they continue or not as it their choice. However, when one starts a project and says "look at me and the fabulous stuff I am doing" then it does not show them in a good light when they give up because they are now in the drudge w…

This seems like a very strange perspective.

> The problem here is that the project was made public for others to use/view.

This literally doesn't matter if we're talking about someone's character, because whether it's public or not is irrelevant regarding the " they give up because they are now in the drudge work" point. Either that point is valid or it's not, but the public knowing about it is beside the point.

And I would say the point is not valid. Someone starting a personal project for a language and then discontinuing it is still much better off than someone not starting a project at all. I don't think most engineers share the perspective that this shows them in a bad light or something, this is honestly the first time I've seen this perspective in years.

> Most of the work that most of us have to do is not exciting, not learning new things, not even interesting. It is just drudgery that needs to be done to get to the eventual goal that we started with. This is life.

There's nothing good about this, nor anything good about reinforcing it. Godspeed to those who can avoid it.

The author of the language does not owe it to anyone to start, continue, or finishing any projects they have in mind, definitely not to anyone sitting around and judging them for daring to do something at all.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#77

What he is experiencing is the reality of most people's lives. The boredom and drudgery of doing the hard yards every day. Most people do not have the luxury of doing what is interesting to them. It is a case of just having to knuckle down and complete what has been started. From my personal perspective, it's nice to have side projects that are interesting and learning exercises. The reality is that if these side pro…

I don't agree. If I'm doing the boring parts of a project at work, at least I get paid for it. If I'm doing the boring parts of a side-project, where the only benefit to me is that it's fun, what's the point?

The point is the completion of the project. Most parts of most projects that we do, whether we are paid to do those projects or not, are boring and tedious. Without those parts, nothing is ever built or completed.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#78
Some people seem to be objecting to this as a fluff piece, but it speaks to me on a deep level.

I develop free software because I like to learn and create; because good tools make work a joy; because I like to make useful things.

And I've parted ways with several projects, some of them mine and some of them from others. It's painful each time I leave a useful project unmaintained. And yet, I don't find long term project maintenance sustainable as a hobby when my personal use declines.

I suppose the best outcome is handing useful things off to a new caring maintainer. How do other people deal with this?

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#79

Some people seem to be objecting to this as a fluff piece, but it speaks to me on a deep level. I develop free software because I like to learn and create; because good tools make work a joy; because I like to make useful things. And I've parted ways with several projects, some of them mine and some of them from others. It's painful each time I leave a useful project unmaintained. And yet, I don't find long term proj…

I think handing it off to a maintainer when your own usage declines is a very good idea. One of the problems with maintaining something that you don't use a lot is that you get out of touch with how it is being used and the direction of the community. If you are at the head of the community, it is helpful to be an active participant; so appointing another maintainer who has an active usage, passion, and is "in-touch" with what is going on could be very fruitful. Eat your own dog-food

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#80
post #32

I had a similar thought process (but luckily without spending time implementing something). I want to write a game. I thought, "None of the current languages works quite the way I want. I know! I'll write a language specifically for my game and just keep implementing the bits I need". Then I thought, "Wait. If I do that, I'll spend 90% of my time writing a language and 10% of my time writing a game". So I was saved.…

I'm in the same, but get the opposite idea. I procastinate in build the language I want (a relational engine, not a DB, a language ) always thinking "Is better to let that to pros". But more time I do the same things over and over, more I'm convinved I could abstract my main tasks (around data manipulation) in a simple language: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/8ygbvy/state_of_rust_... But the idiot of me think…

> and don't wanna do C/C++.

Give C++17 a try :)

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