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Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

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Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#51

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

Bekwnn wrote: post #26
mikekchar wrote: post #12

I had a similar thought process (but luckily without spending time implementing something). I want to write a game. I thought, "None of the current languages works quite the way I want. I know! I'll write a language specifically for my game and just keep implementing the bits I need". Then I thought, "Wait. If I do that, I'll spend 90% of my time writing a language and 10% of my time writing a game". So I was saved.…

Games are still in need of a better language. I have some skepticism and hope for Jai. I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Rust asserts too much control over memory. I'm all ears for anything that's somewhere between C and C++ as an alternative to write games in. Most new languages just don't get the things right that C++ did, which is why despite it having…

The AAA company I work for has tried everything possible to work around C++, and let me tell you, had they not started any such efforts, they'd have been way better off. Seeing the results of it all makes me super sceptical of any C++-killers.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#52

Post by nicwilson »

Bekwnn wrote: post #26
mikekchar wrote: post #12

I had a similar thought process (but luckily without spending time implementing something). I want to write a game. I thought, "None of the current languages works quite the way I want. I know! I'll write a language specifically for my game and just keep implementing the bits I need". Then I thought, "Wait. If I do that, I'll spend 90% of my time writing a language and 10% of my time writing a game". So I was saved.…

Games are still in need of a better language. I have some skepticism and hope for Jai. I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Rust asserts too much control over memory. I'm all ears for anything that's somewhere between C and C++ as an alternative to write games in. Most new languages just don't get the things right that C++ did, which is why despite it having…

> I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things.

Such as? We are always looking for for things that get in the way of use.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#53

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

redahs wrote: post #34
Bekwnn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Games are still in need of a better language. I have some skepticism and hope for Jai. I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Rust asserts too much control over memory. I'm all ears for anything that's somewhere between C and C++ as an alternative to write games in. Most new languages just don't get the things right that C++ did, which is why despite it having…

Use regular C, but write the code in literate programming files which can be rendered into a portable design document describing the implementation and interaction of every subsystem in the codebase. 'Standard written English' is the best language available for modeling abstractions.

Do you happen to know any open-source games that do this?

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#54

Post by saagarjha »

eatbitseveryday wrote: post #50
NegativeLatency wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone else who was wondering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bright

Why not just link to the homepage itself, instead of wikipedia... ? Has much more information. http://www.walterbright.com/

Might be considered as a less biased list of achievements (not that I'm saying that Walter Bright's list on his website is biased).

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#55

Post by hzhou321 »

Bekwnn wrote: post #26
mikekchar wrote: post #12

I had a similar thought process (but luckily without spending time implementing something). I want to write a game. I thought, "None of the current languages works quite the way I want. I know! I'll write a language specifically for my game and just keep implementing the bits I need". Then I thought, "Wait. If I do that, I'll spend 90% of my time writing a language and 10% of my time writing a game". So I was saved.…

Games are still in need of a better language. I have some skepticism and hope for Jai. I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Rust asserts too much control over memory. I'm all ears for anything that's somewhere between C and C++ as an alternative to write games in. Most new languages just don't get the things right that C++ did, which is why despite it having…

Here is a direction if you are all ears : instead of a new language, add a new layer.

I tried creating my own languages before, some 15 years ago. While I had fun writing compilers, I missed a lot more writing actual programs. One day I suddenly realized I don't really need new language, what I needed is simply context dependent syntax and code block organization, which can easily implemented on the spot. It become MyDef and I have been programing with it entirely for more than 10 years now and wondering how others don't go down the same path.

Actually in a broad sense, Knuth's literate programing adventure is very similar to mine. He also wondered how others were not as excited as he was.

So rather than a new language, try a new dimension.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#56

Post by oldandtired »

hluska wrote: post #42
oldandtired wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a private endeavour, whether he finishes or not is completely up to him. When he puts it out for all to see, this then changes the dynamic under which he is moving forward. If he had said he was stopping due to life commitments or family situations, etc, then these kinds of things take priority, as they should. No problems or issues should arise from that. But he has stated that he is giving up because it now inv…

A more charitable explanation is (in his words), "it’s no longer fulfilling my goals, and it’s not as fun as it once was." When I look at it from his point of view, I feel quite sorry for him. The language's forum has 9 posts in the last calendar year. 4 of those are him solving a problem using Leaf. Then, I check out the status page and realize that, for all the work he has done, Leaf is still in a very primitive st…

Maybe it is a change of times, but when he got into the detail of why he was quitting, it was about the hard work ahead, which is rarely fun for most people.

I don't feel sorry for him at all. He found something that was of interest to him and he decided to head down a path towards that interest. Good on him. Kudos to him for giving it a go. However, the problem he has made for himself is that he went public far too soon and is now publicly saying he is quitting because there is too much hard work ahead for him.

Startups have a low rate of success and is about testing an idea that has a good likelihood of failure. Different proposition to start with. The more appropriate comparison is making some item that can be useful to you but has a lot of tedious and fiddly work to be done. In his case it was a computer language which always comes with implementation problems to do deal with. One knows this up front, or at least, should know this.

The problem is, he hasn't pulled it off - there is still a long way to go. One of my areas of interest is language design, compiler construction of virtual machine implementation. This subject matter is highly complex, tedious in many ways and requires a great deal of patience and perseverance. For each problem you solve, more arise to be solved.

For an individual, this can be daunting when you finally realise that you have undertaken a massive project. It is especially so, if the language that you have designed doesn't strike a cord in other people. But if you have a goal in mind, then continue on even through the tedium that will come.

Things will always get in the way of you completing side projects, that's life, but you can still keep chipping away as the years go on.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#57

Post by WalterBright »

Bekwnn wrote: post #26
mikekchar wrote: post #12

I had a similar thought process (but luckily without spending time implementing something). I want to write a game. I thought, "None of the current languages works quite the way I want. I know! I'll write a language specifically for my game and just keep implementing the bits I need". Then I thought, "Wait. If I do that, I'll spend 90% of my time writing a language and 10% of my time writing a game". So I was saved.…

Games are still in need of a better language. I have some skepticism and hope for Jai. I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things. Rust asserts too much control over memory. I'm all ears for anything that's somewhere between C and C++ as an alternative to write games in. Most new languages just don't get the things right that C++ did, which is why despite it having…

> I really wish D as better C worked better in that realm, but it's missing a few crucial things.

Like ?

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#58

Post by beachy »

hyperpallium wrote: post #31

I want to do D, and it'll be easier to do A, B, C first. A turned out harder than expected; B had challenges, some seemly insurmountable, some merely incredibly tedious. C looks even worse. I'm exhausted, lost interest in D. But I "should" continue. I give up... a failure. All because A, B, C make D "easy".

As the old saying goes, "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's easy to forget you came to drain the swamp".

(This is not a political comment! The saying long predates the current swamp drainers)

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#59

Post by WalterBright »

saagarjha wrote: post #54
eatbitseveryday wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just link to the homepage itself, instead of wikipedia... ? Has much more information. http://www.walterbright.com/

Might be considered as a less biased list of achievements (not that I'm saying that Walter Bright's list on his website is biased).

One's name is one's brand, and where practical I recommend that people buy yourname.com and own your brand, rather than relying on the vagaries of what others may say about you.

Re: Sadly, I must say goodbye to Leaf, my programming language

#60

Post by hluska »

oldandtired wrote: post #56
hluska wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more charitable explanation is (in his words), "it’s no longer fulfilling my goals, and it’s not as fun as it once was." When I look at it from his point of view, I feel quite sorry for him. The language's forum has 9 posts in the last calendar year. 4 of those are him solving a problem using Leaf. Then, I check out the status page and realize that, for all the work he has done, Leaf is still in a very primitive st…

Maybe it is a change of times, but when he got into the detail of why he was quitting, it was about the hard work ahead, which is rarely fun for most people. I don't feel sorry for him at all. He found something that was of interest to him and he decided to head down a path towards that interest. Good on him. Kudos to him for giving it a go. However, the problem he has made for himself is that he went public far too…

I'm in my forties and the times have not changed that much. We have a limited number of hours on this planet, and we don't know how limited they are until they're already mostly spent. We can slave away doing things we don't gain anything from, or we can go out and take control of our happiness.

This fellow doesn't get paid for his work on Leaf and he works on it during his already spare time. He would gain more doing creative tasks - he wants to "do graphics, write music, make some games and record some videos."

It has nothing to do with hard work and everything to do with allocating his time in the way he most wants to. He is taking control of his own happiness and that is admirable.

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