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Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

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Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#201

Post by cutler »

sbjs wrote: post #99
pcwalton wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think mostly because they were bit too hard by IE doing the exact same thing just a few years before. It's pretty simple, in my view: JS developers were happy with the language and didn't want a browser vendor trying to replace it. Remember that it was announced around the time that the new ES6 ("Harmony") features were generating a lot of excitement about the future of JS.

I think Dart started internal development around the same time CoffeeScript gained major popularity and brought attention to JS's desperate need to evolve, but they released at a bad time: when JS finally did start to evolve (as Harmony) which was a reaction to CoffeeScript in the first place. So CoffeeScript served its purpose of pushing JS forward, and most other compile-to-JS languages had no more purpose. I say m…

Don't forget Clojurescript which heavily influenced the development of React. Clojure is unique in the landscape of modern programming languages.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#202

Post by kllrnohj »

mdgrech23 wrote: post #200
kllrnohj wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on how far you want to stretch it Kotlin is cross-platform-ish. You can write Kotlin that compiles to both JVM and JS, and KotlinNative claims to be able to then also compile that to native. It's hard to do, and there's a major lack of abstractions even within the standard library, but technically possible. I could easily see a future where your business logic is portable kotlin and then you have platform-s…

Yea but you can't develop for iOS using Kotlin. That's a big advantage for React Native/Electron/Flutter and JS world as a whole.

Yes, you can. Kotlin/Native targets iOS: https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/native-overview.html

And if you're going to consider JS as supporting iOS then KotlinJS works on iOS, too.

So Kotlin is doubly runnable on iOS as either native code or JS.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#203

Post by cutler »

scarface74 wrote: post #160
nailer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Java is definitely not doing well compared to .Net even though it is open source Depends on whather you consider Dalvik (or whatever the current Android Java tech is) to be Java - in which case, it is.

Market wise, Java is still popular in the Enterprise and of course if you are developing for Android, you’re going to probably use Java (I’d rather use Kotlin), but for backend work the three most marketable languages seem to be JavaScript (Node), .Net, and Java. Yeah PHP jobs are a dime a dozen but they don’t pay well. Python is a little better but it’s not “Enterprisey” enough for major corporations and the cool hi…

I don't know where you're getting your information about Python from. It's popularity has skyrocketed in recent years. Search Indeed's API for title:python and location:London. 412 Python jobs compared with 278 for Node.js. What's also interesting is that there are currently 35% more Django jobs than Rails in London whilst at Angel.co they're about even.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#204

Post by billchristian »

hota_mazi wrote: post #134
sbjs wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A language by itself is almost never useful, every language needs a killer app, a concrete tangible thing that that language can do better 100x better than any alternative. Like how Ruby had Rails or JS had browsers or Python has ML. That’s not to say you can’t do other things with these, just that their competitor is good enough and has momentum and mind share. It sounds like Dart now has Flutter and I think that’s…

> A language by itself is almost never useful, every language needs a killer app, I don't understand why this myth is still around. C++ never had a killer app to start its momentum. Neither did Javascript. Nor Java really (or maybe applets, back in the days?). Languages can succeed on technical merits alone if they come out at the right time and fix real problems that programmers experience on current mainstream lang…

Javascript had the web. And, Java had the JVM. A killer 'app' is not necessarily singular & discrete.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#205

Post by billchristian »

munificent wrote: post #193
nailer wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google had paved some cowpaths: - CoffeeScript was hugely popular at the time - it was even mandatory at GitHub to make new applications in CS not JS - Typescript was immediately well recieved. JS folk liked optional typing. - Ruby was popular amongst the web community Google would have done a lot better than making a new road and wondering why there's nobody on it.

> - CoffeeScript was hugely popular at the time - it was even mandatory at GitHub to make new applications in CS not JS We'd probably really be regretting that choice since CoffeeScript use is dwindling and the programmer ecosystem has generally turned towards static types. > - Typescript was immediately well recieved. JS folk liked optional typing. Dart was an optionally typed language and is actually older than Typ…

Lars (and company) approach to implement a Dart VM in Chrome was just ahead of its time. WASM is an attempt to accomplish a similar goal and implement a common VM. Perhaps, in the near future, Dart can be a syntax to compile to WASM and accomplish Lars' intentions.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#206

Post by pier25 »

munificent wrote: post #97
sbjs wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what killed Dart is that they emphasized their plans to make Dart a first-class scripting language of Chrome, so that you could use instead of JavaScript. This had a lot of backlash from literally everyone, I think mostly because they were bit too hard by IE doing the exact same thing just a few years before. Only after a few years the Dart team changed courses and said "never mind about that VM-inside-Chrome…

I'm on the Dart team and I agree with pretty much all of this. Personal opinion time: Lars and Kasper, the original leads and creators of the language came out very confidently with this mission to get Dart natively supported in the browser based on the assumption that the language was so good and the VM would be so fast that users would clamor it. They had the best of intentions — they really did want to make a deli…

Off topic but... are there any plans to adapt Flutter for desktop apps?

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#207

Post by kyrra »

pier25 wrote: post #206
munificent wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the Dart team and I agree with pretty much all of this. Personal opinion time: Lars and Kasper, the original leads and creators of the language came out very confidently with this mission to get Dart natively supported in the browser based on the assumption that the language was so good and the VM would be so fast that users would clamor it. They had the best of intentions — they really did want to make a deli…

Off topic but... are there any plans to adapt Flutter for desktop apps?

There is an unofficial implementation for it.

https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#208

Post by devxpy »

beckler wrote: post #113
kasperpeulen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pros: * Flutter is faster. You really notice that for example the animations in flutter are much smoother than in RN * Flutter has really fast development cycle with hot reload ( * Writing UI only once for both iOS and Android * Better documentation * Better tooling support in editors (VSCode and Intellij) Cons: * The Flutter ecosystem is quite small, there are many lacking plugins * The Dart ecosystem is way smaller…

My only complaint so far is some things are not documented very well. I started leveraging the json_serializable lib and all my responses were returning null... it took me a few days of heavy debugging to figure out it was how I crafted my constructors and how the code generators worked with it.

Thankfully, the community is really welcoming. Not like RN where issue are closed for no reason all the time..

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#209

Post by realusername »

hota_mazi wrote: post #185
munificent wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need at least one of three things to get a new language off the ground: 1. Extreme compatibility with the current entrenched language so you can incrementally migrate. C++ from C. CoffeeScript and TypeScript from JavaScript. Kotlin from Java. 2. A killer app (well, framework). Rails for Ruby. WinForms for C#. Applets and J2EE for Java (later Android). 3. A new platform where you must use the language to t…

I listed two clear counter examples to claim #2, C++ and Javascript. I'm even tempted to put C in that list, because C was already popular before Linux. What was Python's killer app? What is Rust's killer app? Go's? Kotlin's? Java is a counter example to your claim #3 since it not only does it run on all OS'es but you can also develop it on all OS'es.

> What was Python's killer app?

Not a killer app, but the fact you have so many ML frameworks

> What is Rust's killer app?

That's clearly Servo.

> Go?

It was docker which really made Go take off, it was their first big platform.

> Kotlin's?

Android compatibility, before that it was a niche language not being picked up much.

Re: Announcing Dart 2 Stable and the Dart Web Platform

#210

Post by solidr53 »

deforciant wrote: post #161
solidr53 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to try building a mobile app then definitely go for Flutter+Dart, even if you don't need to support both Android and iOS I think it's just much more easy to start with than alternatives (RN/Swift/Android Java). How is it easier? You can literally start your React Native development by opening up https://expo.io and scan a QR on your phone.

I prefer something that you can build yourself so expo wasn't an option for me. Plus, I think most of the platforms one day (might be soon) will ban these services as they can deliver code to the app after it has been approved. With Flutter it's super easy, they have a CLI that creates an initial boilerplate for your code that you can compile and deploy to your phone in just a single command with hot reload enabled.…

Wait... we were talking about ease of access right?

Just re-reading the getting started guide for flutter, you need a set of tools, the flutter SDK, xcode etc.

That's not one command.

The same goes for React Native, you need node and xcode for building locally just like with flutter.

I am talking about the advantage expo offers to try React Native without any tools.

Heck you could try it in an iPad only if you'd want.

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