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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#261

Post by pure_ambition »

nostrademons wrote: post #85
rwcarlsen wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of the alternatives you propose are what we currently have or are where we are currently heading (IMO). As long as we are speculating - I think a future with good storage tech and 100% solar+wind would be better than one with gas plants thrown in the mix. If climate change is as big a deal as people claim, than why would we sacrifice existing non-carbon-emitting capacity for natural gas? We don't currently ha…

The article suggests that solar + wind with natgas for peaks is exactly where we're headed. At least in the regions being talked about (mostly Europe + California). The Forbes article you linked is about New England. New England will probably be the last region to get decent renewable adoption. Solar panels don't work as well because they're far north and get a number of cloudy days, the winds are not that strong out…

> New England will probably be the last region to get decent renewable adoption. Solar panels don't work as well because they're far north and get a number of cloudy days...

Wrong. Most of Europe (especially Germany) is actually at a higher latitude than New England.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#262

Post by rb808 »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I think there are huge benefits if power was charged at spot rates that were very visible (and actionable). IE its a warm sunny day with lots of wind, the thermostat will let you go down to 74 degrees with AC because power is cheap. If its a warm still evening, let it be warmer in the house to save money. Similarly, run the washer and dryer when its sunny and windy. If power is expensive this week maybe we can't take that weekend trip.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#263

Post by gliese1337 »

matthewmcg wrote: post #148
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Interesting thought. In Richard Rhodes new book Energy , he describes how an early iron smelting works in England, faced with temporarily low demand due to a recession, rolled its excess iron into railroad tracks which could be re-used for other purposes once demand recovered: Richard Reynolds, who managed the Darbys’ Ketley ironworks, near Coalbrookdale, in the 1760s, introduced cast-iron plates and then cast-iron r…

Huh! I had no idea that timber railways were ever a thing to be replaced with iron in the first place! Neat!

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#264

Post by mmt »

caf wrote: post #238
mmt wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where I live its about 25c (of Australian Dollar) for 1kwh but you only get 7c back I've read about places that don't actually do "net metering" and implement this with two separate meters, one for inflow and one for outflow. Is that the case where you are? Are there any time-of-use options available that might sweeten the deal? > So a real battery would be much preferable. Assuming it were free (even to purchase,…

It doesn't need two meters, you can just keep separate track of the times that the connection is a net exporter and the times it is a net importer.

That's true, in that, if the metering is purely electronic, the only thing "separate" would be two different readouts. For electro-mechanical metering, I'd still expect a need for two physically separate ones.

Regardless, substituting "readouts" for "meters" is irrelevant to my question.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#265

Post by computerphage »

whitej125 wrote: post #254

Any good book recommendations that could shed light on the mechanics/economics/incentives of the power industry and how it came to be?

The Grid.

I heard about it two years ago and recommend it often.

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books/The-Grid

https://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill-Gates/Best-Books-2016

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#266

Post by [deleted] »

phil21 wrote: post #211
tensecondflash wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the case. Depending on where you are, you either get paid retail or wholesale rates, and still have to pay some monthly service fee regardless of surplus or deficit. I've never heard of any utility in the US buying solar production at more than retail rates.

> you either get paid retail or wholesale rates So above market rates. Sorry, your 10kw of intermittent unreliable power provided at your whim into a random neighborhood grid is not worth the same amount per kwh as reliable base/load following generation. And that's wholesale. Retail priced net zero metering is even worse - that's simply poor people subsidizing rich folks with solar panels. Maybe the subsidization is…

[deleted]

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#267

Post by whatsstolat »

mmt wrote: post #200
whatsstolat wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live its about 25c (of Australian Dollar) for 1kwh but you only get 7c back. So a real battery would be much preferable.

> Where I live its about 25c (of Australian Dollar) for 1kwh but you only get 7c back I've read about places that don't actually do "net metering" and implement this with two separate meters, one for inflow and one for outflow. Is that the case where you are? Are there any time-of-use options available that might sweeten the deal? > So a real battery would be much preferable. Assuming it were free (even to purchase,…

Its a single digital meter.

For a few weeks we had the old style meter. It span backwards on a sunny day. So for that time period it was same rate in and out.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#268

Post by alexeckermann »

Some insight into the change year-on-year to the South Australian negative pricing; the change may be due to more active management by AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator). Wind is now mostly curtailed at ~1.2GW and a minimum quantity of synchronised gas generators operating. This was in response to a system security scare in 2016 where the entire state experienced a 'Black System' event where we lost all power -- lights out in the entire state. That was caused by a storm taking out some primary transmission lines on top of a less-than-ideal market generation mix causing a chain of events but it put focus and revealed the bigger security issue everyone ignored -- higher risk figures were reported but nobody cared until it was a problem.

Whilst we have enough wind and solar to take the state to 100% renewable (at times) it is not secure enough to provide industrial contracts or services like FCAS (Frequency Control Ancillary Service). With dwindling industrial contracts for energy providers the generation market has gotten smaller, primarily supplying domestic load/customers. That on top of a privatised market lacking responsibility for planning ahead has left the local market in a flux. The spot market has become so unreliable that some businesses have opted for their own on-site diesel generation.

One may assume that this would mean our power prices are pretty low. But that isn't the case. It has been said we have some of the highest electricity prices in the world. In context, this has been because of waining industrial load contracts and profit focussed privatised generators. We just also happen to have a high-wind generator mix.

So whilst living in a state with a high % of renewables is great, the lack of planning in a privatised market has left everything a bit messed up. Businesses looking outside the highly variable spot market into the hands of fossil fuel generators, domestic customers paying some of the highest power prices in the world, and nobody is really responsible/accountable for keeping the lights on.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#270

Post by Moru »

eloff wrote: post #236
floatrock wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

Desalinization isn't a good example for the reasons you say, but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. Since water once heated stays hot for a good while in the insulated storage tank. Also buildings can be heated with hot water instead of forced air, typically through pipes in the floor. Which is nicer because it keeps your feet toasty and doesn't dry out the…

Heating a big, isolated water tank was pretty common when I was working in the industry 25 years ago. Power was much cheaper during night so you used that to heat the water tank and daytime you used that water to heat the building. Lately this has been available to private customers also, price by the hour. (Sweden)
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