Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#101

Post by timr » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 9:48 AM UTC

dingy wrote: post #99

timr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But there are bright minds working on new antibiotics, energy efficient cars, cheaper building materials etc. Some of the best and brightest minds are also smashing atoms in particle accelerators, charting the cosmos, composing symphonies, educating new minds, and, yes, pushing the limits of computer connectedness to make many lives on this planet just that much nicer." Speaking as one of those people who took a nic…

Most of the people who are smashing atoms and charting the cosmos are economic martyrs. Baloney. Here in the Netherlands, scientists working at universities and research institutes get a pretty decent salary. Sure, they don't get filthy rich, but fortunately there are more than enough people who don't care about that. The thing is: if getting rich is your primary objective, you're not going to save the world anyway.…

"Baloney. Here in the Netherlands, scientists working at universities and research institutes get a pretty decent salary. Sure, they don't get filthy rich, but fortunately there are more than enough people who don't care about that."

Maybe it's baloney in the Netherlands, but it's not baloney in the states. I do happen to know what a post-doc makes in the Netherlands (I had a job offer there), and it wasn't anything to get excited about (it was about on par with the earning power of a post-doc in a mid-sized city in the US -- which isn't much). But you're right about one thing: nobody is in danger of getting rich.

That said, I believe you're overlooking one incredibly important difference between life in the US and life in the Netherlands: we don't have a robust social welfare system to support us in old age. Taking 10+ years to do a PhD and post-doc in the US eats into your prime earning years, and puts retirement at risk. From this perspective, the "system" is indeed broken; there's a much stronger financial incentive to start saving while you're young.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#102

Post by timinman » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:04 AM UTC

Fantastic. Inspiring, and a little bit of a kick in the back-side. There's nothing wrong with games or social media, but they shouldn't be the only thing we have to offer.

You've probably seen the Nathan Myhrvold quote: 'the old Silicon Valley was about solving really hard problems.'

While a Web App Startup may not be able to solve every problem, we can do more than offer empty self-gratification.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#103

Post by Mz » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:25 AM UTC

I wrote a long post. It timed out. It's probably a bit ranty anyway. Shorter version: I got well when doctor's were trying to convince me I should accept a slow torturous death as my only due in life (I guess so they could feel they knew something and deserved their high salaries) by eating better food and routinely buying new clothes (and throwing out the old stuff when it got too unclean for my needs). I prefer pissing my money away on cheap clothes from Kmart and affordable, decent food from various eateries to pissing my life away on doctors and antibiotics (which I had free access to at one time because I was a military dependent -- and I walked away from that).

This person has no clue what it takes to solve really hard problems.

PS: "Bread and Circus" is a form of Roman wisdom. Quit trying to give it a bad name. "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" and empty bellies are worse. In times of crisis, I practice a policy of "bread and circus". Making sure my sons and I are well fed and have something entertaining to do so we don't go stir crazy and can mentally focus on something other than our overwhelming problems has been critical to our track record of success.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#104

Post by gaius » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:29 AM UTC

dingy wrote: post #99

timr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But there are bright minds working on new antibiotics, energy efficient cars, cheaper building materials etc. Some of the best and brightest minds are also smashing atoms in particle accelerators, charting the cosmos, composing symphonies, educating new minds, and, yes, pushing the limits of computer connectedness to make many lives on this planet just that much nicer." Speaking as one of those people who took a nic…

Most of the people who are smashing atoms and charting the cosmos are economic martyrs. Baloney. Here in the Netherlands, scientists working at universities and research institutes get a pretty decent salary. Sure, they don't get filthy rich, but fortunately there are more than enough people who don't care about that. The thing is: if getting rich is your primary objective, you're not going to save the world anyway.…

It's not about "filthy rich" it's about living a normal, middle-class lifestyle. It takes as long to become a research scientist as it does to become a doctor, dentist, etc. And the pay is not even half.

Then again in the UK anything "technical" doesn't get a lot of respect. Engineers do a bit better than scientists, but nowhere near lawyers or accountants. Science and engineering are not even considered among "the professions". IT is one of the few niches where meritocracy at least prevails, not even there is it guaranteed tho'.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#105

Post by MarkSweep » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:42 AM UTC

david927 wrote: post #84

dasil003 wrote: post #23

Reading this resonated with me. I knew that the responses here would pretty much rip it apart, but I'm surprised that as of right now only one of 15 comments is positive. It's pretty easy to find ways to criticize this post. It's not particularly well written, it's not inspirational, and of course you can poke holes in any kind of argument this vague. But if you don't agree, I think it's worth it to stop and be hones…

I think this is a great criticism of Silicon Valley, in general. It used to be filled with nerds who wanted to change the world. Now it's filled with hackers who want to get rich. Let me quote the author again: They’re creating "bread and circuses" ... apps that are wildly popular, infinitely entertaining, and exactly what people want. The only problem is that they don’t really do anybody any good. They’re not doing…

Was silicon valley really originally about changing the world? It is my understanding that the customers for integrated circuits during the 70s and earlier were primarily the military and large corporations. While delvoping technology for those sort of companies may be more "real", it hardly seems like that sort of work would be any less profit-driven.

Also I would guess that the prominence of silly start-ups that are based on "game mechanics, addiction, self-reference, and narcissism" is made to appear larger because these sorts of companies need large numbers of people to be aware of them. Start-ups that create products that are not used by the general public probably will not seek publicity and thus you are less likely to read about them on tech crunch.

I have interned at three start-ups over the last 4 years and none of them have ever been mentioned on Techcrunch, despite one of them being involved in some serious M&A action. But why would they be, since readers probably are not hugely interesting in moving silicon wafers around a fab and companies are unlikely to find customers for their protein analysis hardware.

So before you lament that lack of "real" start-ups, consider the possibility that you just are not hearing about them.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#106

Post by enko » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 10:58 AM UTC

david927 wrote: post #84

dasil003 wrote: post #23

Reading this resonated with me. I knew that the responses here would pretty much rip it apart, but I'm surprised that as of right now only one of 15 comments is positive. It's pretty easy to find ways to criticize this post. It's not particularly well written, it's not inspirational, and of course you can poke holes in any kind of argument this vague. But if you don't agree, I think it's worth it to stop and be hones…

I think this is a great criticism of Silicon Valley, in general. It used to be filled with nerds who wanted to change the world. Now it's filled with hackers who want to get rich. Let me quote the author again: They’re creating "bread and circuses" ... apps that are wildly popular, infinitely entertaining, and exactly what people want. The only problem is that they don’t really do anybody any good. They’re not doing…

> It used to be filled with nerds who wanted to change the world. Now it's filled with hackers who want to get rich.

What about nerds who want to change the world, but know they'll have to get rich to do so?

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#107

Post by jeromec » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 11:09 AM UTC

PStamatiou wrote: post #56

jeromec wrote: post #12

Here’s a problem: Many Americans can’t afford medical care. Er, not sure where the author has been since the November 2008 election, but President Barack Obama made tackling this decades long problem a signature issue of his presidency, and actually got the problem addressed comprehensively. Sure, there is still work to do, but health care which makes up 1/3 of the economy was never going to be solved by programmers…

Just wanted to say thanks for the link to nev's homeless experiment. I rather enjoyed reading it (and keeping my mind off getting my wisdom teeth pulled in the AM)

I enjoyed reading it too. For the wisdom teeth extraction, when not going to sleep, a trick I used was trying to recall the details of the more positive points of stories I'd read to keep the mind busy and happy. It helped me, at least. :)

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#108

Post by robryan » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 11:12 AM UTC

marshallp wrote: post #69

robryan wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends really, does rentacoder exist on a never ending churn of cheap labour that competes at unsustainable prices or does it actually provide people with a decent wage over the long term.

What is a decent wage? 2 dollars a day is pretty good to someone previously making 1 dollar a day.

Of course it is relative, I'm just saying if for example $2 a day is good where you live and your competing for $1 or something.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#109

Post by jeromec » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 11:19 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #52

jeromec wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are bright minds working on new antibiotics, energy efficient cars, cheaper building materials etc. Some of the best and brightest minds are also smashing atoms in particle accelerators, charting the cosmos, composing symphonies, educating new minds, and, yes, pushing the limits of computer connectedness to make many lives on this planet just that much nicer. There are different ways to contribute to the wo…

"But there are bright minds working on new antibiotics, energy efficient cars, cheaper building materials etc. Some of the best and brightest minds are also smashing atoms in particle accelerators, charting the cosmos, composing symphonies, educating new minds, and, yes, pushing the limits of computer connectedness to make many lives on this planet just that much nicer." Speaking as one of those people who took a nic…

Irrational or not, my opinion is that the world would be 1000% better if we could somehow create an economy that rewarded young people for doing research into antibiotics half as well as it rewards them for creating social-networking widgets.

I agree. It's also a shame that a professional basketball player makes around 100 times more than a professional school teacher. That's just how it is.

Re: Bread and Circuses: The State of Web App Startups

#110

Post by replicatorblog » Fri, Oct 08, 2010, 11:21 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #22

replicatorblog wrote: post #15

I didn't find the reasoning in this article very sound and the heated "high school angst" quotes hurt its credibility. e.g. "These products feed and profit from our bovine adoration of mindless time-wasting." That said, to address her point, I don't understand why tech start ups would be the answer to everything, especially a complex problem like homelessness. Homelessness isn't going to be solved by some RoR hacker…

"Homelessness isn't going to be solved by some RoR hacker creating a website that matches the homeless with available space. Rather it is the challenge for social workers, mental health practitioners, etc." I think you're missing the larger point: when the best and the brightest technological minds are chasing the instant riches of social networks for dogs, they're not creating new antibiotics, energy efficient cars,…

I work in medical/pharma, an area that some consider "Socially Beneficial". The reality isn't much different than the consumer web. For instance, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent on making small improvements to diabetes monitoring tools. We are talking about chasing minor improvements e.g. reducing test times by 1s. All those resources could be spent researching a cure.

Pharma's actions are dictated by the same financial reporting as tech so even if smart people moved from consumer web to pharma, its not as if we'd end up with a better world. Maybe just one with thinker, more lustrous lashes...http://www.latisse.com/

I guess my take on the "bigger point" is that the market seems to work. We are much better off in almost every area of our lives now compared to 50 years ago. Walmarts goal of keeping their shelves stocked for the "bovine masses" has led to a revolution in logistics. People who invented cellular phones as yuppie status symbols have saved millions of lives through better communication. And a couple guys who made devices to get free calls on pay phones ignited a computing revolution that has reshaped the world in the most grand fashion since Gutenberg.

My larger point is that toys have a way of becoming seriously useful and that socially engineering people to go into "valuable" fields could lead to a glut of mismanaged resources that don't necessarily yield benefits.