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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

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Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#101

Post by leggomylibro »

verisimilitude wrote: post #31
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

I believe aluminum is nicknamed "solid electricity" due to the ore purification process or somesuch; which dovetails well with the strategy you outline here!

Haha, I like that description a lot. You can even make small batteries out of little more than aluminum, an electrolyte like salt, and (I think) a way to bring oxygen to the cathode like activated charcol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#102

Post by cmsonger »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

> Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

Unless it affects grid reliability. Energy is not just a market. It's something that underpins modern society and the modern economy. I, for one, do not want my power to go out at 7pm because demand is peaking, traditional plants had to close, and the sun is going down.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#103

Post by ZeroGravitas »

Price signals that go negative seem to really freak people out, but the real transition point is when the price dips below the marginal cost.

If you're burning 1 dollar of fuel to generate one dollar worth of electricity then anything less is a signal to switch off. If your boiler has physical reasons for not turning off and on sharply then you can find yourself eating a loss in the short term to make money on average even with positive prices. Which puts a monetary price on flexibility or integrated storage.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#104

Post by thinkcontext »

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

The negative price doesn't help you, or your utility which is your economic proxy. Your utility is (largely) not paying the negative price because the price is negative when not much electricity is being used. Think about it, how much electricity is the average house using at 3am? Not much. So, the price being negative then doesn't save you any money. Now, if you set your dishwasher, electric dryer, etc to run at 3am then you wind up saving your utility some money.

Some industrial customers have the ability to automatically ramp equipment up and down or schedule maintenance for when they know power prices will be high.

CA having a large amount of intermittent renewable power sources means your grid has to spend more on storage or peaker plants, dirty gas plants that can ramp up and down quickly to match load. You pay for that in a higher bill.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#105

Post by azeotropic »

thinkcontext wrote: post #61
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

If you wait for power prices to be negative (or merely lower than usual) you are not getting an economic return on the money you put into the desalination plant when it is not running. Think about it, if you get a 100M Euros loan to make a desalination plant, how long will it take to pay that off if you only run your plant a few hours per day vs 24 hours per day. Whether it makes economic sense depends on the differe…

More like 1 hour every 4 days in Germany, if I'm counting the number of hours YTD correctly.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#106

Post by whatsstolat »

milcron wrote: post #44
maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

Electricity isn't a great market. End-users with solar power are allowed to use the grid as a perfectly free battery, which is why everyone is dumping power on the grid at high noon.

Where I live its about 25c (of Australian Dollar) for 1kwh but you only get 7c back. So a real battery would be much preferable.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#107

Post by Geee »

deweller wrote: post #4

Surely Bitcoin miners will snatch up these opportunities soon. Cheap electricity can be translated into money if you have the mining equipment.

Not really. Mining has high capital costs which can't be covered if the energy source isn't reliable. Mines need to run 24/7 to be profitable.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#108

Post by swebs »

nostrademons wrote: post #54
rwcarlsen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low/negative prices (caused largely by various regulation/policies) have been putting a lot of economic pressure on existing nuclear power generation - sometimes causing it to close [1]. Generation that is largely replaced by natural gas plants. So maybe this very non-free-market state is actually not helping make forward progress on what many would consider to be one of the most important issues relating to energy -…

An energy industry where the bulk of energy production is wind & solar with natural gas plants to handle peak demand spikes is significantly more environmentally friendly than an industry where the bulk of production is oil & coal with a few nuclear plants thrown in.

I'd much rather have solar/wind/nuclear than solar/wind/gas.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#109

Post by pmoriarty »

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

"Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity..."

I don't know if you ever look at the pamphlets PG&E send you along with your bill, but it seems every month they're announcing a rate hike, with a meeting about it that's open to the public.

Maybe someone who hasn't yet thrown away one of those pamphlets could quote the supposed reason for one of their rate hikes. They always have some excuse for doing it.

With a price hike of something like 1% to 2% every month or two, it's a wonder we're not paying much, much more.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#110

Post by chlvsl »

floatrock wrote: post #48
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

Isn't a process like this is already utilized in local areas in the US through pumping water up into a water tower?
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