Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid • Hacker News Board

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#11

Post by mikestew » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:23 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US

Not until you tell us where you live, because I'm not going to backtrack by looking up which state has $0.28/kWh electricity. Though without that knowledge, I'm going to guess something something supply and demand.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#12

Post by rwcarlsen » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

Negative energy prices have been a not uncommon occurrence in various places in the US and EU for a while. They are not necessarily a good thing. They occur due to a combination of how generating sources are managed/dispatched [1] and because of policies that make it possible for (some) generating facilities to still make a profit while bidding to provide electricity at a negative cost (literally paying the recipient to take the electricity). This is not necessarily a good thing and can actually lead to increased carbon footprints of our energy generation mix along with other not necessarily good outcomes [2].

[1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=7590

[2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6917222/

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#13

Post by Latteland » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

you left out your state :-) I thought washington state was the state with most renewables. I pay about 12c per kwh.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#14

Post by wyattpeak » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #2

Last time there were "weird" issues with power someone was gaming the system: Enron. Something about this article just seems off to me, something isn't right from a technology point of view, and I suspect someone is manipulating things. (No, I do not have evidence. Just a feeling like this isn't such a hard problem to solve technically.)

What problem are you talking about? I'm not getting any problem from the article at all, except the structural (and well-known) problem of a lot of our power infrastructure being designed for more predictable output patterns than we have today.

It's fairly typical 'state of the industry' coverage, with no real surprises.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#15

Post by pkaye » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

It depends on where. In the US there is a state to state variation. In California for example, after the Enron power crisis, the government guaranteed ROI for construction of new power plants. Also don't forget there other costs beyond generation (like transmission lines and other infrastructure.)

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#16

Post by epx » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:24 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #9

deweller wrote: post #4

Surely Bitcoin miners will snatch up these opportunities soon. Cheap electricity can be translated into money if you have the mining equipment.

Agreed but its a weird transaction system that works better on windy days. :)

I just saw myself licking the thumb, putting the arm out of the window, waiting a bit and thinking "ok the thumb got chilled enough so it is great time to pay that bill".

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#17

Post by dev_dull » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

I wonder about this as well. I think it’s time we start getting real answers from PG&E about why our power cost so much when apparently it’s so abundant.

Even with solar they charge me $10/month to be hooked into the grid, even though they’re using that same connection to sell my excess premium renewable energy to others.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#18

Post by gameswithgo » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

sxates wrote: post #7

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

Has a power company ever voluntarily lowered rates?

yes

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#19

Post by dev_dull » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #11

aphextron wrote: post #3

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US for retail electricity, at $0.28/kWh, in a state with the highest percentage of renewables in the country?

Can someone please explain then why we are paying the highest prices in the continental US Not until you tell us where you live, because I'm not going to backtrack by looking up which state has $0.28/kWh electricity. Though without that knowledge, I'm going to guess something something supply and demand.

Without a doubt California w/ PG&E.

Re: Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

#20

Post by perl4ever » Tue, Aug 07, 2018, 8:25 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

> It’s left the utilities complaining that they can’t earn the returns they expected for their investment in generation capacity. Good. That's a well functioning market economy. Those who make poor investment choices need to feel the sting of losses else the market fails to work correctly.

I think that negative prices are prima facie evidence of a market economy not functioning "well".

Negative prices seem to me to be to be equivalent to fines for doing things that aren't socially useful. If they proliferate, that's a suggestion something is out of whack.