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EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

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Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#201

Post by dragonwriter »

dmix wrote: post #189
mirimir wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but (according to a former senior adviser, who I got to know in the 90s) he was very close to supporting something like national minimum income. To replace welfare. As I recall, it used the income tax system. Below some minimum income, the tax rate became negative, increasingly so as income dropped.

American politics was very centerist in the past. The toxic partisan nature of it, which both sides are currently doubling down on, is largely a modern invention. The unending increase in size and scope of government has been largely separate from this, and was a feature of both parties despite rhetoric for much of the last century. Not just in the US but in every western country. Saying that government has been stri…

> American politics was very centerist in the past.

Not for most of its history it wasn't. Between the New Deal and the early 1990s, though, there was a long shift in party alignment that had both major parties being ideologically incoherent big tents in transition between the past (ideological and more so geographic) party alignment and a new ideological, national alignment. This produced something that looked like more centrist politics, but it wasn't really fundamentally so, and in any case it was a manifestation of a transitory, inherently unstable, state.

> The toxic partisan nature of it, which both sides are currently doubling down on, is largely a modern invention.

No, it's not. See, the 1860s for a fairly vivid counterexample.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#202

Post by nemacol »

dmix wrote: post #187
nemacol wrote: post #147

Having just lost a father-in-law to mesothelioma (June 2018), this makes me incredibly sad. I understand this is not an actual rule change and blah blah blah. 3,000 people are diagnosed with mesothelioma each year. What a slow and horrific way to go. Slowly losing your breath. Lungs filling with fluid and being rushed off to ER to drain. Endless breathing treatments. Never sleeping more than an hour without waking up…

It does say it's only being approved in special cases. I wouldn't expect the building industry to suddenly start using it again. How many of those 3000 are a legacy of the previous eras misunderstanding of the chemical? I doubt any company would ignore that risk and produce a product that put people at a direct and unknown risk, especially given the legal liability since we now know the full risks of the chemical and…

The cases per year are going down and the average age of diagnosis is 69. So you are right in that most of this is legacy.

But we know now and knew then that it was dangerous.

Much like the radium girls in the early 1900's - where the people delivering the paint would wear leaded protective equipment and then management would watch (and encourage) the girls lick the paint brushes to keep the tip pointed. They knew it was bad. They just didn't give a fuck.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#203

Post by jpindar »

bruinjoe wrote: post #135
hanniabu wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the US lobbying system, where science, ethics, and morals take a backseat to agendas of those with the deepest pockets.

This is so true. We should just ban lobbying because it is only used by rich corporations and individuals.

Would you include the ACLU, EFF, etc. in your ban?

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#204

Post by washadjeffmad »

mirimir wrote: post #137

Wow. I mean, wow. I'm impressed. These idiots in government really only care about their bribes. And the idiots who are bribing them only care about making money. Everyone else can just fuck off and die. But hey. The Reagan era was horrible too. I mean, eight fucking years! Plus four more of Bush I. And then, all too soon, another eight years of Bush II. ... Actually, I was going for optimism. But I just can't get it…

It's not just "the system", it's the people populating it, and they're there.

You can't believe that a government stacked with people whose stated missions are to destroy the only formalized, enforceable bodies of standards and accountability in this nation so that only "the market" can judge them would be trying their best to make things work. It'd be like locusts helping farmers choose better pesticides.

And they're so good at understanding the population and controlling the narrative (which isn't that hard I guess if you own the newspapers and brodcast networks) that people have been led to believe in an incredible act of cognitive dissonance that it would jeopardize everything they stand for to get the things they want and need, like the universal healthcare or some higher labor standards.

It's easy to laugh in the faces of people you're making fools of when they bend over backwards to help you do it.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#205

Post by HillaryBriss »

AngryData wrote: post #157
patrickg_zill wrote: post #85

Aren't there 2 kinds of asbestos? 1 kind is dangerous to humans due to its particle size, and the other is larger and is filtered by your body...?

All forms of it are potentially harmful, but some forms of it are more easily broken down and go airborne making it easier to breath it in. It is nearly identical to breathing in ceramic dust, the finer it is easier it is to ingest it and the less likely your nose and throat will catch the particles before it enters your lungs and can no longer be expelled.

i agree with you. i believe asbestos is unsafe and we should not be releasing more of into the environment by adding more of it to building materials and other industrial products.

but, a perhaps surprising thing about our lungs is that they can expel some of the inhaled asbestos fibers. but, in some people that's just not good enough: they still get sick. (another risk factor, smoking, increases one's chance of mesothelioma from inhaled asbestos fibers)

asbestos fibers are everywhere. a very substantial fraction of US residents have some asbestos fibers in their lungs because of natural background levels and/or contamination of the urban environment by industrial asbestos from past decades. during the 9/11 attacks, significant quantities of asbestos became airborne in NYC.

asbestos fibers are quite durable. they don't break down into safe substances or disappear from the environment on their own.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#206

Post by mirimir »

dmix wrote: post #189
mirimir wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but (according to a former senior adviser, who I got to know in the 90s) he was very close to supporting something like national minimum income. To replace welfare. As I recall, it used the income tax system. Below some minimum income, the tax rate became negative, increasingly so as income dropped.

American politics was very centerist in the past. The toxic partisan nature of it, which both sides are currently doubling down on, is largely a modern invention. The unending increase in size and scope of government has been largely separate from this, and was a feature of both parties despite rhetoric for much of the last century. Not just in the US but in every western country. Saying that government has been stri…

It was also fundamentally different. What we call the Democratic and Republican parties are not at all the same as the parties in the 20th century that used those names. Democrats were the party of old wealth, but also philanthropy, and favored foreign intervention. Republicans were the party of new wealth, and quite isolationist.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#207

Post by rayiner »

The reaction on here is disappointing. Asbestos isn't nuclear waste: it causes harm in well understood ways, and the dangers of its use can be mitigated. A case-by-case analysis of new asbestos products is absolutely a reasonable approach.

The EPA is charged with regulating rationally. Costs must be weighed against benefits. That balancing process is itself something that saves lives--e.g. there are people who are dead because asbestos alternatives aren't as good for fire proofing.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#208

Post by dmix »

dragonwriter wrote: post #201
dmix wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American politics was very centerist in the past. The toxic partisan nature of it, which both sides are currently doubling down on, is largely a modern invention. The unending increase in size and scope of government has been largely separate from this, and was a feature of both parties despite rhetoric for much of the last century. Not just in the US but in every western country. Saying that government has been stri…

> American politics was very centerist in the past. Not for most of its history it wasn't. Between the New Deal and the early 1990s, though, there was a long shift in party alignment that had both major parties being ideologically incoherent big tents in transition between the past (ideological and more so geographic) party alignment and a new ideological, national alignment. This produced something that looked like…

s/past/recent past

I'm not debating 19860s politics, I'm talking about the growth of the modern state, largely post WW2. Which has rarely been partisan.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#209

Post by arcticbull »

mtw wrote: post #182
nemacol wrote: post #147

Having just lost a father-in-law to mesothelioma (June 2018), this makes me incredibly sad. I understand this is not an actual rule change and blah blah blah. 3,000 people are diagnosed with mesothelioma each year. What a slow and horrific way to go. Slowly losing your breath. Lungs filling with fluid and being rushed off to ER to drain. Endless breathing treatments. Never sleeping more than an hour without waking up…

> Not to mention the hassles of the American healthcare system, doctors, lawyers, bills, and enough paperwork to fill a small office building. For reference, each new case costs the Canadian healthcare system $1m CAD.

Assuming case costs are evenly distributed and proportional to per capita expenditure, that means each new case would cost the US healthcare system about $1.6M USD. Something tells me that's an underestimate.

Re: EPA is allowing asbestos back into manufacturing

#210

Post by mrguyorama »

dfsegoat wrote: post #191

Just a reminder that asbestos occurs naturally in many CA state forests. Was recently offroading in McCloud, CA and it was all over the road - definitely didn't want to kick up dust: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r5/landmanagement/resourceman... http://www.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/minerals/hazardous_minera...

Isn't this a non-sequitur? Nearly everything "occurs naturally" to some degree. That does not mean we should be okay with extra exposure. Asbestos was "banned" for a very good reason, why the step back?
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