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Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

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Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#271
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more clearly, Apple choosing to be selective about who they'll retain in their podcast catalog is not at all the same discussion as The New York Times choosing who to hire . This is practically the textbook case of an unrelated controversy derailing a thread.

That's true, the distinction is greater than I made it out to be. On the other hand, derailment was a serious concern during the industrial revolution and some thread-workers violently opposed new, disruptive technology. This is a technology site. Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica, all this has happened before and will happen again and is totally not unrelated.

Conceded.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#272
post #66

When it comes to the internet, Apple, Facebook, and Google are more powerful than the most powerful governments in the world. They should uphold the principles of free speech, despite not being required to by law. Everything that is legal to say, which is almost everything, should have a equal access to these major platforms. Everyone else should have the basic faith in humanity that whatever problems this causes are…

The principal of free speech isn’t the same thing as the right to an audience though. It’s the right to say what you want without being prosecuted. Alex Jones wasn’t prosecuted and he had the right to say what he wants, he just can’t do it on Facebook. But that isn’t an infringement of his rights, it’s a simple consequence of being a total asshole. If you always talk about how great eating feces is at every dinner pa…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#273

If you send Alex Jones a submission on how great Hillary Clinton is, do you think it’ll get posted on infowars? No Does that mean Alex Jones is limiting your free speech’s by denying you access to his platform? You can argue that Facebook, Apple and twitter are bigger platforms, but the principal is really the same. Free speech is the right to say what you want, the way you want it, without being procecuted by the go…

I don't think Infowars has ever advertised itself an a non-political way for people to connect with each other.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is correct that something being hate speech by itself not sufficient cause for it to lose first amendment protections.... "Hate speech is correctly generally protected by the first amendment" obviously does not mean "all hate speech is protected regardless of other properties it may have". That's the entire point of the word "generally". The point is that Apple and others are using "hate speech" alone as the jus…

I have explained at least half a dozen places in this thread why it's a mistake to think there's no moral imperative for private individuals and organizations free speech just because the first amendment applies only to the government. There is a moral imperative for private organizations to protect open expression in fashion appropriate to their position the national and world media "sphere" (Google suppressing a se…

> None of them are identical to a government so none of them have imperatives identical to a government.

I didnt claim they were identical and I have in fact already given an example elsewhere in this thread for where they are different. If you want to argue for a particular difference in this case, do so. But just pointing out that I haven't fully anticipated and defeated to all possible counterarguments in a single 100-word HN comment is not constructive.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have explained at least half a dozen places in this thread why it's a mistake to think there's no moral imperative for private individuals and organizations free speech just because the first amendment applies only to the government. There is a moral imperative for private organizations to protect open expression in fashion appropriate to their position the national and world media "sphere" (Google suppressing a se…

> None of them are identical to a government so none of them have imperatives identical to a government. I didnt claim they were identical and I have in fact already given an example elsewhere in this thread for where they are different. If you want to argue for a particular difference in this case, do so. But just pointing out that I haven't fully anticipated and defeated to all possible counterarguments in a single…

Well, my most recent argument above was explaining the logic behind my earlier claims about what was appropriate for the various platforms that recently banned Jones (I've been assuming hn readers connect the dots). I don't think Facebook, youtube or Apple have made Infowars in any way impossible to find or learn about - indeed, they've given him lots of publicity which no doubt allows many to discover his hateful ideas, still freely available on his website (still indexed by Google).

The various media platforms have, however, strongly interfered with his ability to profit from his lies, slander and malice and appropriately so. One can hope that a despicable thug like Jones winds-up in with his commercial empire collapsing and in state of destitution but unfortunately, he will mostly likely just slow shrink away.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interest of avoiding a flame war, I would like to clarify my comment. Please elaborate on what "war" is being waged. That's a strong statement. Jones is to me equivalent to those guys who wear the "got hates gays" signs and go to college campuses preaching inflammatory stuff, in other words, clowns.

This is a very good question, thank you. I am not very articulate in my ability to answer, but I'll give it a shot. First I would say that it encompasses the fact that the purpose of propaganda, misinformation, and deception is not to inform but to incite, control, misdirect, and is otherwise malign in intent. The purpose of the action is to cause the recipient to self-harm, in the sense of sowing unwarranted distrus…

Interesting. Zooming out a bit I think you are making an argument similar to the argument entailed by the quote "war is politics with guns, and politics is war without guns".

The quote captures the violence inherent in politics. What is interesting about your argument is that you seem to carve out an exception for working within the system.

If we take "the system" to mean the dominant political order, or put another way, the manners and conventions preferred by those in power, then your comment seems to be a strong argument for preserving the status quo of powerful interests. This is nearly the definition of conservatism.

But you also mention that some try to attack our institutions. You include Wikileaks in that list, so I think there is an interesting distinction to be made.

Most of what Wikileaks does is to reveal corrupt or illegal behavior done by officials and government institutions. If the behavior that is revealed makes the public angry, then the leaked information puts the institutions involved in danger. The institutions generally exist because they provide a service to the public and the public funds the institutions in exchange for the service that is performed.

When leaked information shows that the service is not being performed in an honest way, the public may recoil and begin to question whether the institution should be trusted to continue functioning, since the leaked information reveals that there has been dishonest stewardship going on.

To use an analogy, take the situation with Jerry Sandusky. He ran the institution of Penn State football. Once someone leaked the information that he was abusing children with the help of some of his top staff members, the institution of Penn State football came under great scrutiny. In your words, it was "attacked" by those who were outraged that the legitimacy and history of the football program had been used to facilitate the inappropriate behavior of one man.

I view the leaked information and subsequent partial destruction of the Penn State football program as a very good thing. I'm actually very pleased that top aides to Sandusky were fired, and that Sandusky himself was no longer allowed to have a job where he could take advantage.

In the short term, this looks bad for the institution of Penn State football, but over time it offers the program a chance to rid itself of corruption and rebuild itself into a stronger institution that does not foster child abuse.

It sounds like you are arguing that there is a sacred area that it is impolite to question and impolite to "attack" if one comes to view it as being counter-productive. It seems that you believe that the people who leaked information that the US Government was lying to the public about the Iraq and Afghan wars should not have leaked the information but should instead have handled the situation internally within the military. Similarly one might expect that you would prefer that the person who leaked Sandusky's behavior should have instead gone to him and advised him to stop abusing children but should not have reported the abuse to authorities or the parents of the children he victimized.

While you may not hold these views, I think they may be logical consequences of the views you do express.

In my opinion, the only way we can have strong institutions is if we have high levels of accountability and zero wiggle room for fraud and corruption.

To draw on your point about information campaigns, I'm less concerned with the kinds of campaigns you mention and more concerned with the campaigns run by the most powerful interests. People in the US fear Muslims and brown folks largely because of a multi-billion dollar propaganda campaign intended to make Americans want wars in the middle east. There are unintended consequences to that campaign such as the fear and mistrust spilling over onto brown skinned immigrants from Latin America, etc.

There is very little scrutiny of key US institutions. The GSEs withheld financials for several years leading up to the crisis in 2008. Many officials have been found to have committed perjury, etc., yet have not been held accountable. There are so many disturbing ways in which the core institutions of our democratic system are being corrupted and used by those in power for their own benefit at the expense of society as a whole.

The solution is not trust in our leaders, good manners, or loyalty. The solution is to increase accountability and transparency. Someone like Jones should have no fodder for conspiracy theories because we should all see obviously corrupt leaders disgraced and removed fairly often.

How is it that we tolerate Paul Ryan, a man who has spent his life in public service and yet has a net worth exceeding $8 Million Dollars? Why don't we scrutinize how he got that money and what was exchanged for it?

When we allow this stuff to happen and we act loyal toward the people doing it, we empower people like Jones to embellish and stylize nearly any kind of conspiracy theory he dreams up. In a democracy, public servants do not become multi-millionaires. It just doesn't happen.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#277

I see a lot of comments regarding freedom of speech. But this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has everything to do with hate. I would not eat at a restaurant that has hate propaganda on their walls. This is same thing. He is free to publish his podcast on the internet, no one is stopping. If US government bans him, then we are in a big trouble.

Hate speech labeling is just the left picking politically expedient winners and losers.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your whole "easy" solution is not a solution. You just avoid the condition and expect it's solved.

It was solved, Alex Jones broke the rules and reaped the consequences. If you posted the same sort of content you would have been banned a lot sooner, and rightly so, being popular shouldn’t give you the right to be evil. I mean, by all rights, Trump should have been banned from twitter as well, but I guess you can become popular enough that rules don’t apply. But that is frankly wrong.

Yeah he broke “the rules” of Apple, Facebook, Spotify and YouTube all on the same day. Whatever you think of Alex Jones, this is a political message, not a cultural one.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#280
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder if there's a way to talk about this without the C word coming up, as it seems to quickly slide down the rabbit hole of definitions and what the substantive merit of 'censorship' is. Okay, sure YouTube telling Alex Jones to kick rocks isn't censorship, because only the government has that power. It used to be a go-to move of mine to remind the holder of that opinion that government (supposedly) exists a…

Our free speech laws prevent government censorship, but also stretch to include the concept of corporate censorship in the sense of allowing access to “the public square”. IMO this public square concept will inevitably extend to major internet service providers like Facebook, Google, and Apple. Similar to how we’ve come to understand the Internet as a whole as a utility which should provided as a dumb-pipe service by…

This is a great point and an even greater counter I think to give a more explicit argument as to the usefulness of the Internet.
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