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Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

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Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#51

Post by jules »

matt42 wrote: post #46
ariehkovler wrote: post #3

Really interesting. Makes me think of Daisyworld and the Gaia Hypothesis. Daisyworld is a model Earth covered in black and white daisies, that either absorb or reflect light. In the model, black daisies need less light because they absorb more, increasing the Earth's heat absorption. White daisies absorb less so need more light, but also reflect more light back, increasing the surface albedo of the planet and lowerin…

>> Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. Earth may have tricks to save its ecosystem, one of them could be temporarily increase temperatures and sea levels, just enough to end humanity.

It is exceedingly unlikely that raised temperatures or sea levels would end humanity. Even if all ice melts there would still be a lot of land, and humans can and do currently survive in hot climates. The habitable zone will just shrink a bit, but it will also expand in other places. Siberia + 5 degrees is still cold.

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#52

Post by samfriedman »

matt42 wrote: post #46
ariehkovler wrote: post #3

Really interesting. Makes me think of Daisyworld and the Gaia Hypothesis. Daisyworld is a model Earth covered in black and white daisies, that either absorb or reflect light. In the model, black daisies need less light because they absorb more, increasing the Earth's heat absorption. White daisies absorb less so need more light, but also reflect more light back, increasing the surface albedo of the planet and lowerin…

>> Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. Earth may have tricks to save its ecosystem, one of them could be temporarily increase temperatures and sea levels, just enough to end humanity.

Something I think of often when people say things like "we need to stop climate change and save the world!" The world will be fine, it's not going anywhere: humans and the species we like on the other hand...

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#53

Post by cup-of-tea »

matt42 wrote: post #46
ariehkovler wrote: post #3

Really interesting. Makes me think of Daisyworld and the Gaia Hypothesis. Daisyworld is a model Earth covered in black and white daisies, that either absorb or reflect light. In the model, black daisies need less light because they absorb more, increasing the Earth's heat absorption. White daisies absorb less so need more light, but also reflect more light back, increasing the surface albedo of the planet and lowerin…

>> Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. Earth may have tricks to save its ecosystem, one of them could be temporarily increase temperatures and sea levels, just enough to end humanity.

This is surely the case. Nobody really thinks humans have the ability to wipe out all life on Earth do they? We might be able to destroy ourselves, but life will probably continue at least until the Sun turns into a red giant. Life on Earth has survived far more catastrophic events than anything we can manage.

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#54

Post by older »

samfriedman wrote: post #52
matt42 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. Earth may have tricks to save its ecosystem, one of them could be temporarily increase temperatures and sea levels, just enough to end humanity.

Something I think of often when people say things like "we need to stop climate change and save the world!" The world will be fine, it's not going anywhere: humans and the species we like on the other hand...

Are you George Carlin?

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#55

Post by eganist »

cup-of-tea wrote: post #53
matt42 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. Earth may have tricks to save its ecosystem, one of them could be temporarily increase temperatures and sea levels, just enough to end humanity.

This is surely the case. Nobody really thinks humans have the ability to wipe out all life on Earth do they? We might be able to destroy ourselves, but life will probably continue at least until the Sun turns into a red giant. Life on Earth has survived far more catastrophic events than anything we can manage.

Any large system can be undermined by a small actor imposing a miniscule change. It just depends on which component of the system is disrupted.

Granted your options dwindle as the disparity grows, but so long as a component is accessible to an actor, the system can be impacted.

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#56

Post by snikeris »

zerealshadowban wrote: post #34
wklauss wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because of this, there's a feedback loop were even if the sun gets a little hotter or colder, the successful daisy would spread and either warm or cool the Earth in response, effectively acting as a stabilizer. Gaia theory suggests that the world is full of these stabilizing systems. There are several mechanisms in place on earth to stabilize changes in atmospheric composition and temperature (otherwise an sporadic…

What specific baseline do you pick, and why? are there multiple variables involved in that "baseline"? have these variables changed over the 10k years preceding the Industrial Revolution? together or separately? what about these same variables over the last 200k years?

Good questions. You also have to consider the variables that have changed since the Industrial Revolution. There are more people on earth to feed and provide a modern standard of living. We should work to reduce the costs on the planet for these things, but we can't eschew the progress we've made in order to return to some arbitrary baseline.

See: ecomodernism

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#57

Post by cschwarm »

21 wrote: post #42
bencompanion wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar production is one approach to this that is low-tech and doesn't require organism engineering. It's kinda counter intuitive that burning a rich source of carbon would keep it out of the atmosphere, but turning organic material into charcoal stabilises it and renders it inedible and insoluble, and it's really useful as a soil amendment in a lot of places, and it's very likely safe…

Wouldn't this biochar be the charcoal mines of tomorrow? What I'm saying, is that if it's cheaper than regular coal people will buy this to burn. So you still need an incentive to not burn fossil fuels.

Biochar is unlikely to be cheaper than coal, ever. Optimistic long-term estimates are $100 per ton [1].

[1] http://biomassmagazine.com/articles/4080/beyond--the--hype

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#58

Post by cup-of-tea »

eganist wrote: post #55
cup-of-tea wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is surely the case. Nobody really thinks humans have the ability to wipe out all life on Earth do they? We might be able to destroy ourselves, but life will probably continue at least until the Sun turns into a red giant. Life on Earth has survived far more catastrophic events than anything we can manage.

Any large system can be undermined by a small actor imposing a miniscule change. It just depends on which component of the system is disrupted. Granted your options dwindle as the disparity grows, but so long as a component is accessible to an actor, the system can be impacted.

Can you prove that? I don't believe it.

Are there any theories supporting the end of all life on Earth?

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#59

Post by bpicolo »

beerlord wrote: post #12
hawkice wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would probably be dangerous to engineer an organism that doesn't break down. Imagine a living, growing plastic. Except not a Dr. Who villain.

Well presumably we could still collect, dry and burn what accumulates on the shore, and the rest would fall to the seabed. If the alternative is a hothouse Earth, with large sections of the planet rendered uninhabitable, geoengineering schemes like this are going to be necessary. We can start with iron fertilisation experiments - Australia has a lot of it, and is near oceans.

> the rest would fall to the seabed

And kill a ton of sea life?

Re: Seaweed could be scrubbing more carbon from the atmosphere than expected (2017)

#60

Post by wrycoder »

masklinn wrote: post #31
bumholio wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homeostasis might work in a limited range under which the biological world evolved in the recent past. Exceeding that range could quickly turn to a runaway geological event of rapid climate change, a state transition in a complex and unpredictable system. Take for example the great oxidation event happening 2.5 billion years ago. As oxygen excreting algae began to take over methane producing organisms, oxygen sta…

> So I have full faith life on Earth will eventually restore the feedback loops and get the temperatures back in the sweet spot. Or just broadly adapt to the new state of things, historical data suggests that atmospheric CO2 levels did reach ~1000PPM up to the Cretaceous, with complete lack of continental ice sheets and temperate forests at the poles. The current sweet spot is a sweet spot for us and the ecosystems w…

I’m reading the three Wikipedia pages “Ice Age”, “Geologic Temperature Record”, and “Carbon Dioxide in Earth’s Atmosphere”. They are imo not tendentious at this time and give a fascinating introduction to the extremely complex geologic climate. For example, it’s remarked that the high temperatures in the Cretaceous were likely mostly due to the formation of Pangea and the resulting change in ocean circulation.
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