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Where Vim Came From

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Re: Where Vim Came From

#171

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

krylon wrote: post #156
chr15p wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just its launch time but its ubiquity, vi comes installed on pretty much every linux/unix machine no matter how minimal the install so if you are a sysadmin whose job involves jumping between machines a lot it makes far more sense to learn vi then install emacs everywhere. Its also the reason to use it without customization so you dont come to rely on a feature that isn't installed on that one machine with a crit…

OTOH, emacs has TRAMP which allows you to edit files remotely, using ftp or ssh as the transport layer. (Okay, I do not use that feature often, and I do still use vi sometimes for quickly editing a config file or something).

vim comes bundled with netrw, which lets you do the same thing.

Re: Where Vim Came From

#172

Post by rco8786 »

digitalzombie wrote: post #48
rco8786 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m assuming RoR is Ruby on Rails here? If so, this seems extremely odd considering the age of the two things.

I don't get your statement. But to clarify I was talking about how the crowd in RoR have a high uptick on vim editors. I was reminiscing on the old days of RoR that may have contribute to some more people adopt Vim. A casual google shows this including a poll in 2014: https://www.sitepoint.com/editor-rubyists-use/ There's even a quora question too: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-Rubyists-use-VI-M And a plausibl…

I don’t understand why pushing vim around that time would be considered pushing “new” things is all

Re: Where Vim Came From

#174

Post by Timpy »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #160
raverbashing wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok let me be very honest here, let's look at both editors learning curves - vi/vim You need to learn to open a file, edit it, move around and exit and the edit/view mode. Everybody learns how to do it. At first it sucks but you can learn this in 5 min. Nothing too hard, and yes, do use the direction keys, it's not the 70s anymore. From there you can learn other things - Emacs You try reading anything about it, there'…

> Nothing too hard, and yes, do use the direction keys, it's not the 70s anymore. Yet another thing 70s got better than today's software. The defaults you're used to are a historical accident, and are also crap - that is, an impediment to productivity. > I tried opening the help of both programs (...) > Emacs? I'll copy-paste here (key bindings help) How on Earth did you get there? The very first thing in the Help me…

You're addressing something that is not really related to raverbashing's point. It's just a quick look at learning curves.

>I'm arguing here against the stupid - and stupidly common - approach that proper UX means a newcomer must be able to use the software productively after 30 seconds of exposure to it

No one here made the claim that Vim is better because you can be productive faster, nor was it said that productivity software should have no learning curve.

Re: Where Vim Came From

#175

Post by INTPenis »

rounce wrote: post #76

I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of Vim's current popularity stems from EDITOR=vim by default on many distros, despite often having emacs and always including nano. Even over a decade ago when I was in my early teens this seemed pretty common.

I believe EDITOR=vim in turn stems from vim being able to run in restricted mode.

I once saw a hardcore emacs user forced to use vim because he was building a setup that allowed shell users to edit a file. And couldn't do that in emacs. So he had to use rvim -y.

I myself once built a nethack shell server where I used rvim to allow users to edit their nethackrc.

So distros preferring vim can either stem from it being vi-compatible which is POSIX. And/or from having a restricted mode.

Re: Where Vim Came From

#176

Post by Avamander »

pletnes wrote: post #70
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely anecdotally I've ever met two person who used Emacs and handful of people who use vim. At my current job I'm the only one who uses vim as my main tool, but collegue sitting next to me is the other Emacs user. Although some poeople have started to dabble in vim every now and then. I guess people just run into vim more often in the wild.

Relatedly, the emacs users I’ve met were 10+ years older than me (so far). Also, a huge number of other editors have vim keybindings as an option or plugin: intellij, eclipse, visual studio - the list goes on forever...

> a huge number of other editors have vim keybindings as an option or plugin: intellij, eclipse, visual studio - the list goes on forever...

I think I managed to crash the IntelliJ vim keybinding mode like twenty times when trying to get used to vim.

I did try later to just use vim on it's own, but it really doesn't appeal to me at all, I have to google pretty much everything I need to get done and that takes so much time, is there a way to make vim show a help bar just like nano has?

Re: Where Vim Came From

#177

Post by Timpy »

rounce wrote: post #76

I wouldn't be surprised if a large part of Vim's current popularity stems from EDITOR=vim by default on many distros, despite often having emacs and always including nano. Even over a decade ago when I was in my early teens this seemed pretty common.

Vim by default reminds me of organ donors. In countries where people are considered organ donors by default and have the option to opt-out, organ donor stats increase dramatically.

https://www.cesifo-group.de/DocDL/dice-report-2016-4-li-niko...

Re: Where Vim Came From

#178

Post by JdeBP »

raverbashing wrote: post #125
cup-of-tea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very difficult to do with free software and completely irrelevant really. At some point in your life it's OK to accept that you're the weird one. We're the weird ones. Donald Knuth, Richard Stallman, Guido van Rossum, Rich Hickey et al are the weird ones. I don't know why emacs is such a barrier to everyone else or why vim is so attractive. But I don't understand most other humans about most things.

Ok let me be very honest here, let's look at both editors learning curves - vi/vim You need to learn to open a file, edit it, move around and exit and the edit/view mode. Everybody learns how to do it. At first it sucks but you can learn this in 5 min. Nothing too hard, and yes, do use the direction keys, it's not the 70s anymore. From there you can learn other things - Emacs You try reading anything about it, there'…

You pressed the wrong foot-pedal for help, there.

* http://jdebp.info./Humour/exiting-emacs.html

Re: Where Vim Came From

#179

Post by Draiken »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #169
raverbashing wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The defaults you're used to are a historical accident, and are also crap Agreed, that's why I use modern IDEs as well when vim gets in the way > How on Earth did you get there? f1 + ? then "describe bindings" which looks like the most relevant option (I had opened a file with emacs first, I see the welcome page has more helpful guidance, but opening a file is usually what people do first) > following a (somewhat) c…

> Thanks for reinforcing my point that Emacs is more worried about gatekeeping people than being friendly Any ideas how it could be better? It has a built-in tutorial. It has thorough help. It welcomes you with instructions on getting help, as you noted yourself. There's plenty of guides and tutorials on-line, too. What else could it do to be more friendly, that would not involve sacrificing its productivity features…

Honestly I feel that it has become more of a fame and dissimination thing than anything else.

I've seen VIM portrayed as this holy grail of productivity for several years now, while Emacs has always been portrayed as a quirky complex editor.

I'm a VIM user and never used Emacs (nothing against it) but, correct if I'm wrong, both have a similar philosophy and have a higher learning curve than modern editors. They're also both extremely powerful under the right hands.

When I first got into VIM, it was from some conference video showcasing it and how to get good at it. Now remembering back I don't think I ever saw a similar thing for Emacs. I've heard of VimCasts but never heard of EmacsCasts (or something like that). It probably exists, I just never heard of it.

Maybe that's what missing for Emacs?

Take all this with a grain of salt. I may just live in a bubble regarding this :D

Re: Where Vim Came From

#180

Post by krylon »

Annatar wrote: post #58

I still use the original, AT&T vi since I grew up on UNIX and Solaris 2.5.1 was my first UNIX OS after using my Amiga. Even when I’m on a GNU/Linux variant, I run vim by calling vi, primarily because syntax highlighting enrages me to no end. vi won because it came with every UNIX by default, and when one is in a cold server room connected to /dev/console via serial port at 3 o’clock in the morning, one quickly learns…

FWIW, you can compile emacs without support for X11, and you can run it in the terminal my adding the "-nw" parameter.

Not that I want to interfere with your choice of editor. ;-)

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