Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're missing the point of Ariane. Its purpose is providing independent access to space for ESA member nations at a reasonable price, and as insurance against a launch monopoly (it upper-bounds what others can charge ESA). Ariane 5 is also extremely reliable, which is very important for some launches (NASA's James Webb telescope is going to launch on Ariane 5, for example). Ariane's goal is not to win the most comme…
One of the main goals of the Ariane rocket system is also provide jobs,not efficient Lunch system. If they create a reusable lunch system what the workforce will do then?
SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
61–70 of 78 posts
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. Could be that having a legacy rocket programme is if anything a hindrance in this new world of reusability - Ariane in particular seems to be in danger of becoming mainly an employment scheme that builds rockets on the side. For fairness I guess I should say SLS isn't looking too clever at this point either.
You're missing the point of Ariane. Its purpose is providing independent access to space for ESA member nations at a reasonable price, and as insurance against a launch monopoly (it upper-bounds what others can charge ESA). Ariane 5 is also extremely reliable, which is very important for some launches (NASA's James Webb telescope is going to launch on Ariane 5, for example). Ariane's goal is not to win the most comme…
Ariane 5 is reliable but the primary reason it is launching rather then ULA is not reliability but politics.
> Ariane's goal is not to win the most commercial contracts or compete with SpaceX on price.
That is false. That was exactly what their goal was all the way up to a 1-2 years ago when they finally realized how badly they fucked up.
They spent the last 10 years laughing at SpaceX and telling everybody how stupid SpaceX is and how nothing is gone work and how much better they are.
> This is also the reason reusability doesn't make sense for Ariane. With less than ten launches per year, fixed costs make up a large portion of the cost. If they only needed one rocket per year, it wouldn't really get all that much cheaper because they still need the factory.
You are repeating what is essentially propaganda that ignores important facts.
The reason Ariane can only launch 10 times a year is because they totally failed in innovating and rested their success for a long time and now that they got 3 billion to develop a new rocket, that they claimed would be competitive. However the totally fucked that up and are not even close to being competitive.
The very reason they go all this money for Ariane 6 was to build something competitive so they could continue to capture commercial launch so that government flights were cheap.
So it is not that re-usability is not worth it, its that they failed to make a commercially viable product and without that they are just monopolistic launch with a low launch rate.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was a epoch defining change. It does feel like a ton of time ago, and everyone in the industry (most notably ULA, Arianespace and the Chinese) are trying to figure out what they do now that the SpaceX steamroller is in full force.
> It was a epoch defining change Not yet. Costs haven't fallen. The epoch-defining change would be back-to-back commercial launches with the same booster in a short period of time with zero or little retrofitting.
That is false. You already pay 10 million less. That is 15% of the launch price. And 15% of the extremely cheap price that SpaceX was already selling.
The reality is that SpaceX simply increased its margin. The technology is still epoch defining.
If any competitor comes even close to SpaceX in price, they will simply drop the price again.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. Could be that having a legacy rocket programme is if anything a hindrance in this new world of reusability - Ariane in particular seems to be in danger of becoming mainly an employment scheme that builds rockets on the side. For fairness I guess I should say SLS isn't looking too clever at this point either.
I don’t think SLS ever looked good, except when evaluating it for pork value.
First I would ask him to list the various specific missions that the SLS is designed to carry out.
And then I would ask if the BRF lives up to its promises, which of those missions, if any it would not be able to carry out.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#65> It is worth recalling that SpaceX only flew a "used" booster for the first time in March 2017. It's amazing this happened just a little over a year ago.
Have actual cost saving numbers been published? I remember reading estimates back in 2016 or so of ~60% but I'd be interested in what the real numbers were
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
The refurbishing costs of even their first reused booster was less than half the price of a new booster [1], so something above 50%*70% = 35% saving assuming that the booster is 70% of the cost of the launch. The new block 5 version rocket is supposed to reduce that refurbishing cost by a lot. However, they have development costs of something like a billion dollars to pay back, and no reason to lower the price drasti…
From that link. Holy cow: "“Looking forward for reusability, we don’t believe it really, really counts unless you can turn it around rapidly, or almost as rapidly, as you turn around an aircraft,”. I had no idea they were aiming for this level. That is just mind boggling how drastic a change it's going to be.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#67> It is worth recalling that SpaceX only flew a "used" booster for the first time in March 2017. It's amazing this happened just a little over a year ago.
It was a epoch defining change. It does feel like a ton of time ago, and everyone in the industry (most notably ULA, Arianespace and the Chinese) are trying to figure out what they do now that the SpaceX steamroller is in full force.
Nitpicking on the language: why would SpaceX be a steamroller? Steamrollers are slow. Also, what does it mean for a steamroller to be in full force? Steamrollers push downward at a constant force, don't they?
I understand that SpaceX is crushing its competition, so you want to bring the steamroller metaphor, but perhaps for what you are saying other metaphors would be a better fit.
Further reading: Orwell, Politics and the English language[1]
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if it is refueled in orbit? The BFS presentations hinted at that ability.
You could, but I’d hesitate to call the result an SSTO, and you’d be better off using the whole BFR stack anyway. Orbital refueling is critical for the Mars plans. BFR can’t launch for Mars without it, so the capability will definitely be there.
I am guessing a BFR + specialized fuel container payload will deliver far more fuel to orbit compared to BFR + BFS + fuel.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
You could, but I’d hesitate to call the result an SSTO, and you’d be better off using the whole BFR stack anyway. Orbital refueling is critical for the Mars plans. BFR can’t launch for Mars without it, so the capability will definitely be there.
Add a refueling station in orbit and this setup requires less BFR + BFS launches. I am guessing a BFR + specialized fuel container payload will deliver far more fuel to orbit compared to BFR + BFS + fuel.
Re: SpaceX set to re-fly a Block 5 rocket for the first time tonight
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think SLS ever looked good, except when evaluating it for pork value.
Here is what I would like to ask the head of NASA if I had the chance to interview him. First I would ask him to list the various specific missions that the SLS is designed to carry out. And then I would ask if the BRF lives up to its promises, which of those missions, if any it would not be able to carry out.