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Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

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Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#191

Post by 2020-3030 »

mistermann wrote: post #149
pjc50 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Magna Carta is literally an agreement among the ruling class. By "legitimacy" I don't mean that people agree with the conclusion being expressed, but that people agree it's at least an attempt at a structured argument based on actual facts. The 95 Theses were complaints against real injustices, not a set of fabricated smears. Colonial independences generally were discussable - and discussed - at the time and in a…

> but that people agree it's at least an attempt at a structured argument based on actual facts This is far easier said than done. Just for starters, which "people" get to decide, and that's not even getting into the messy details at analyzing any arguments or facts.

We know who gets to decide - the owners of the communications platform and those who influence them. If Apple wanted to be more inclusive in the decision making, they could choose to do so.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#192

Post by resters »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #135
resters wrote: post #113

Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants. Those who ignore the obvious signs and still choose to listen to it do so for their own, identity-driven or emotional reasons. This is the same process that causes humans…

> The only way to prevent dark ages beliefs is to shine light on them. This is the sort of principled belief I used to hold that I’m no longer sure holds up to scrutiny. There's always been a fringe that was willing to believe anything. But how do you call something like Infowars “fringe” when it’s on the same “network” as NPR and CNN podcasts? Placement like that legitimizes Infowars. That “light shining” on Infowar…

> ... but what was going to turn their beliefs around?

Educating people about morally correct beliefs is a separate undertaking that is typically what members of the clergy undertake with worshipers. I don't think there is any need for such a role in secular society. If you disagree, don't just downvote this, explain what level of moral education and policing is appropriate in a free society.

> ...this move may cauterize a growing infection.

I understand the point you are making, but I would like to add that I think it's a bit dangerous to use nazi-style rhetoric like "infection" or "infestation" to describe people we oppose politically.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#193

Post by nailer »

pjc50 wrote: post #58
creaghpatr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm most worried about Spotify, who already plays kingmaker for upcoming artists. They could use Twitter-like 'shadowban' techniques take punitive measures against 'bad' music artists. Because isn't there a lot of music that plausibly contains 'hate speech' or 'incitements of violence'? Not saying they will, because they haven't indicated that yet, but they are working with the extremist SPLC to craft a policy around…

> extremist SPLC No.

Yes. The SPLC put reform Muslim Maajid Nawaz and anti-FGM campaigner Ayaan Hirsi Ali on their list of hate speech advocates until threatened with legal action by Nawaz.

Right leaning source: http://dailycaller.com/2018/04/19/splc-maajid-nawaz-muslim-e...

Left leaning source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/opinion/southern-poverty-...

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#194

Post by zaroth »

edkennedy wrote: post #148
zaroth wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t watch the video, just read the transcript. Your quote is the headline but it’s merely paraphrasing what was actually said. The transcript is talking about how media is trying to drum up a narrative that any violence against the media is Trump and InfoWars and Breitbart fault. This is seen as another means of censorship and blame gaming. The specific example that comes to mind is of the attack in Baltimore Ca…

Sandy Hook. Pizza Gate. We can all laugh about "gay frogs" but the guy is dangerous. Let's just agree to disagree. I read your comment history. There's no point in debating you.

I do have a fairly strongly held belief that speech is not “dangerous” unless it is a direct incitement to violence. I believe it’s much more likely (and has happened consistently throughout history) that “subversive” speech is labeled as dangerous in an attempt to silence the message or messenger. Very often the benefit of time shows that the particular censorship was actually about oppression and not security.

I actually have learned a lot over the last few years on HN in discussions on all sorts of thorny topics with people holding diverse viewpoints.

Throughout those discussion I try very hard to avoid ad hominem attacks, or personally disparaging remarks. We’re not obligated to engage or reply to comments espousing different viewpoints, but if we do, we’re obligated to keep it civil please!

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#195

Post by resters »

mrguyorama wrote: post #164
nailer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Trying to put CNN on the same (low) level as InfoWars is disgusting and a deliberate misrepresentation of fact.

To avoid a flamewar about the parent of your comment, I think it's appropriate to interpret it as a broad observation about the decline in journalistic standards and the shift in focus of news organizations into content farms for like-minded people.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#196

Post by KozmoNau7 »

zaroth wrote: post #88

This is an interestingly coordinated move. It seems a most like each of the platforms was waiting for one of the others to make the first move at wiping InfoWars off their platform entirely instead of just censoring specific episodes, and then the dominoes fall. I’ve never listened to an InfoWars podcast, so I don’t know what I’m missing. But from what I gather Alex is an entertaining quack who is ultimately harmless…

>"Various campaigns have been trying to downrank, delist, or demonetize sites like InfoWars or Breitbart."

Good, because those sites are absolutely notorious for spreading lies and false rumors that have caused documented harm to innocent people, under the guise of "asking questions".

It is way too easy to spread lies in simple black/white slogan form. They embed themselves and influence opinion. It takes much more effort to disprove them, because reality is complicated and nuanced.

There's your asymmetric information warfare. The virulent hatemongers know that people want simple scapegoats, and they play to that, with anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-tolerance retoric.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#197

Post by resters »

mcphage wrote: post #168
resters wrote: post #113

Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants. Those who ignore the obvious signs and still choose to listen to it do so for their own, identity-driven or emotional reasons. This is the same process that causes humans…

> Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants. If that were the case, he wouldn't have the popularity that he has, he would be just another rando ranting on a street corner. But that's not the case—the fact is, ther…

Simply censoring the content isn't healing anything, it's akin to putting masking tape over the injury to hide what is going on.

Note: I think it is dangerous to use nazi-style analogies for content we do not agree with. Calling it an infection, infestation, etc., does not help with the rational process of discussing the issue of content which some people find objectionable, it merely politicizes it and dehumanizes those who like the content.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#198

Post by resters »

rbanffy wrote: post #181
mcphage wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone of average intelligence who spends 30-60 seconds listening to Alex Jones will quickly realize that Jones suffers from some kind of mental illness or personality disorder, and that there is nothing of interest or value to learn from his rants. If that were the case, he wouldn't have the popularity that he has, he would be just another rando ranting on a street corner. But that's not the case—the fact is, ther…

About half the population has a below-average IQ. If we use it as a proxy for "intelligence", that leaves Jones with roughly a 100 million potential adult listeners, only in the US. That's enough to make him wildly popular.

OK then consider it with 1 standard deviation of average. That was the intended meaning. The big hump of the normal distribution.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#199

Post by nailer »

mrguyorama wrote: post #164
nailer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Trying to put CNN on the same (low) level as InfoWars is disgusting and a deliberate misrepresentation of fact.

Good thing I didn't - read the very first sentence of the comment you're replying to. Then read the rest of it, which is about wanting specific consistently enforced ToS violation handling, regardless of where they're needed or the magnitude of the violation, or how much of an asshole they are.

Infowars are trash. CNN is trashy, but not as trashy as Infowars. I make that abuntantly clear.

I think you're smart enough to know that, so it seems as if you're deliberately misreading the comment in order to either get attention or deflect criticism of ToS violations you support. Which indeed is a disgusting and deliberate misrepresentation of fact.

From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html:

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#200

Post by eksemplar »

mistermann wrote: post #161
eksemplar wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s fairly easy. It’s not my fault people have the wrong assumption that free speech meant you could say what you want without consequences. Part of why free speech work is because adults accept responsibility for their actions, and part of that is living with the consequences of how you behave. When you offend people for a living, people are going to get offended and then they genuinely won’t want to listen…

He is very clearly talking about something broader and more nuanced/complex, a "marketplace of ideas", yet you've twice misinterpreted that as a simplistic appeal to a pedantic interpretation of "free speech as defined by the US Government". Dismissing any discussion on this topic as simply "you have the right to free speech, but you're not guaranteed a platform" in the age of the internet, with absolutely no conside…

It's not broader or more nuanced though, the first amendment is very clear. Apple is no more forced to include infowars on their platform, than inforwars is forced to post an article you sent them.

It has nothing to do with free speech.

I can see why inforwars readers aren't happy with this, but I don't really care what they think. People who send death threats to parents who lose children in school shootings because infowars labeled them as actors in false flag operations are assholes.

Who wants to listen to them? And it's not like they're not allowed to say what they want, they absolutely are, they just can't force anyone to listen.

Ironically, if you want the government to force private companies to include inforwars on their platforms, well, then you're really not very different from the left-leaning marxists who wants the government to force companies to hire 50/50 male/women directors.

Equality of outcome is always evil, and there is nothing complicated or nuanced about it.

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