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Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

wsj.com

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Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#141

Post by seren »

eksemplar wrote: post #93
zaroth wrote: post #88

This is an interestingly coordinated move. It seems a most like each of the platforms was waiting for one of the others to make the first move at wiping InfoWars off their platform entirely instead of just censoring specific episodes, and then the dominoes fall. I’ve never listened to an InfoWars podcast, so I don’t know what I’m missing. But from what I gather Alex is an entertaining quack who is ultimately harmless…

I’m not sure I’d call Alex Jones harmless considering the parents of Sandy Hook victims received death threats after his show labeling them as actors in a false flag operation.

I think this is the fine line where the limit should be drawn.

I am entertained as anyone by conspiracy theories, and I am free to believe them or not. But if tomorrow morning, I would wake up with my name on infowars, saying I am part of the plot, it would not take long to create serious problems.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#142

Post by LargeWu »

adrianN wrote: post #69
mgbmtl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen Infowars regularly mocked in mainstream comedy TV shows. Shining light on Infowars misinformation / ill intent is probably a good thing. Adding barriers to passive consumption, by vulnerable (misinformed) people, is probably also a good thing. It's not being censored/outlawed, just made slightly less convenient to access. Fake news are a threat to democracy.

Censoring "fake" news is not the way to a healthy democracy. Educating people on how to use different sources and do their own critical thinking is what we need.

I agree we need better education about this sort of thing. I think it would be useful for all public schools to include this as part of their curriculum; I think you could easily spend an entire semester on learning to qualify media sources.

However, I think we should make the tradeoff explicit here. Just saying "Apple shouldn't do this because it's censorship, and censorship is bad" is a rather naive attitude. I would argue two things:

1. This isn't censorship, it's a refusal to broadcast. It's one thing to say "You can't say that", and another to say "I'm not going to allow you to use our platform to say that." The government is not allowed to prevent speech, but that doesn't mean that private companies are required to enable it.

2. It's not "fake" news. It's fake. It's literally made up stories, about child sex rings in pizza parlors and slave colonies on Mars.

So you might say, what's the harm in making up stuff? Well, people are shooting up restaurants and making on-air death threats to journalists and generally gravitating towards authoritarian viewpoints sponsored by organizations such as infowars. And guess what tool authoritarians love to employ? CENSORSHIP. Failing to hold these jokers accountable for their words and instigation actually and inevitably leads us farther down the path towards actual censorship than refusing to give them a platform. I would rather companies take a stand against this stuff than just allow them to exploit our misguided notions of democratic rule to undermine actual democratic rule.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#143

Post by corerius »

staunch wrote: post #66

When it comes to the internet, Apple, Facebook, and Google are more powerful than the most powerful governments in the world. They should uphold the principles of free speech, despite not being required to by law. Everything that is legal to say, which is almost everything, should have a equal access to these major platforms. Everyone else should have the basic faith in humanity that whatever problems this causes are…

It's amusing to watch so many people, for probably the first time in their life, fight so hard for the 'rights' of a large multinational corporation.

The basic problems, of course, are the natural monopolies and near-monopolies that came from networks. Given the amount of power you'll find in those companies given the surveillance society, I wish that antitrust law would actually come into existence again.

The be fair, there's nothing new here. Whether it was the day of Hearts newspapers or the big 2 1/2 TV networks, mass media outlets have always been political tools that are argued over.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#144

Post by eksemplar »

xoa wrote: post #136
eksemplar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is fairly easy. If someone is an asshole online, you ban or ignore them. Free speech is the right to speak your mind without being prosecuted by the government, it’s not the right to force your opinion on people who don’t want it.

To call that "fairly easy" seems a little overly glib maybe? I mean just look at the HN comments on this, or the comments on the WSJ article or the Ars version. Lots of people have internalized that banning people is "censorship" and nearly always wrong, and that the "right answer" to bad information is more information. Of course that framework for dealing with info attacks doesn't really address what to do when the…

I think it’s fairly easy.

It’s not my fault people have the wrong assumption that free speech meant you could say what you want without consequences.

Part of why free speech work is because adults accept responsibility for their actions, and part of that is living with the consequences of how you behave. When you offend people for a living, people are going to get offended and then they genuinely won’t want to listen to what you have to say.

Which is their right.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#145

Post by bobcostas55 »

marijn wrote: post #90
zaroth wrote: post #88

This is an interestingly coordinated move. It seems a most like each of the platforms was waiting for one of the others to make the first move at wiping InfoWars off their platform entirely instead of just censoring specific episodes, and then the dominoes fall. I’ve never listened to an InfoWars podcast, so I don’t know what I’m missing. But from what I gather Alex is an entertaining quack who is ultimately harmless…

> I don’t know anything at all about Jeong, other than some highly... erm... problematic old tweets. That's the power of a smear campaign, right? Planting a negative perception in people who previously had no attitude about a person. I recommend researching a bit before repeating the message of the campaign ("racist tweets"). Jeong is okay.

Yes, you have to look behind a few cherrypicked racist tweets...

....and you'll find stuff like a bizarre conspiracy theory about the Rolling Stone UVA rape hoax.[0]

[0] https://archive.fo/ByFXt

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#146

Post by CNJ7654 »

S-E-P wrote: post #62

Won't change anything. Do you really think that InfoWars listeners really use Apple as their only point of exposure. Also a little hypocritical of Apple, they have some very inflammatory/deceptive podcasts run by some pretty nasty people, but because they aren't InfoWars it's ok. Apple is not virtuous, nor will they ever be, regardless of what they want you to think.

>Apple is not virtuous

So much this. Apple is a corporation. Every action the company takes is in the interest of increasing their profits, whether directly or indirectly

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#147

Post by eksemplar »

qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #95

I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend with you the right to say it. Apple's wrong here.

So Apple isn’t allowed the freedom to do as they want?

On a smaller scale, you couldn’t get your content posted on infowars if they didn’t like it. Does that mean infowars is stepping on your rights?

No, because freedom of speech isn’t the same thing as the right of being heard. You can say what you want, but I don’t have to listen to you.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#148

Post by edkennedy »

zaroth wrote: post #108
edkennedy wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was toeing the line of violence against journalists though, which is exactly when the take downs started to happen. "I don't condone violence buuuuuut..." https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/07/13/infowars-perso...

I didn’t watch the video, just read the transcript. Your quote is the headline but it’s merely paraphrasing what was actually said. The transcript is talking about how media is trying to drum up a narrative that any violence against the media is Trump and InfoWars and Breitbart fault. This is seen as another means of censorship and blame gaming. The specific example that comes to mind is of the attack in Baltimore Ca…

Sandy Hook. Pizza Gate.

We can all laugh about "gay frogs" but the guy is dangerous.

Let's just agree to disagree. I read your comment history. There's no point in debating you.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#149

Post by mistermann »

pjc50 wrote: post #77
unit91 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, by the private individual. The problem is many things that were major moments in world history didn't pass the ruling-class's "minimum legitimacy requirement" at the time. Top-of-my-head examples: the Magna Carta, the Protestant Reformation, Indian Independence, anybody else's independence, Snowden, etc.

The Magna Carta is literally an agreement among the ruling class. By "legitimacy" I don't mean that people agree with the conclusion being expressed, but that people agree it's at least an attempt at a structured argument based on actual facts. The 95 Theses were complaints against real injustices, not a set of fabricated smears. Colonial independences generally were discussable - and discussed - at the time and in a…

> but that people agree it's at least an attempt at a structured argument based on actual facts

This is far easier said than done. Just for starters, which "people" get to decide, and that's not even getting into the messy details at analyzing any arguments or facts.

Re: Apple Removes Infowars from Podcast Directory

#150

Post by paulgb »

ihuman wrote: post #67
paulgb wrote: post #35

I agree with the comments that it's their store and they can do what they want with it, and Jones actively uses his platform to bully individuals so I'm not disappointed to see it diminished. That said, the trend of centralization of Podcasts worries me a bit. Podcasts were one of the few real success stories of an open syndication format that allowed an ecosystem of podcast apps to flourish. I've noticed a trend whe…

The iTunes podcast directory still uses the original RSS feeds. You can use this bookmarklet to get the RSS feed from your browser https://github.com/djm/uncover-itunes-rss-bookmarklet

Thanks for sharing this! I was able to subscribe to a podcast with an otherwise-hidden RSS feed.
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