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OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

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Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#51

Post by 21 »

darepublic wrote: post #50
21 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next AI will always be much better (see AlphaGo progression). Humans, not so much, as in all top-level competitions, human abilities improve minimally at the top, because we have millions of humans competing against each other until the plateau of human performance is reached. Then you can push that a bit more with drugs (see doping in sports). And after that, you are pretty much done. So it's only a matter of ti…

I agree that AIs will eventually win. But I only consider human beings beaten when the AI is interfacing with the machine the same way as humans -- looking at the monitor, and inputting commands through keyboard and mouse. That is on a different level than just hooking into a log of events and calculating your next move. Given enough time humans would do that better than the AI imo

Come on, do you think hooking a robot to the keyboard is the hard part? Do you want 5 fingers too?

And if watching the screen, do you want it to have bad eyes like we do too (good resolution only in the center)?

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#53

Post by darepublic »

21 wrote: post #51
darepublic wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that AIs will eventually win. But I only consider human beings beaten when the AI is interfacing with the machine the same way as humans -- looking at the monitor, and inputting commands through keyboard and mouse. That is on a different level than just hooking into a log of events and calculating your next move. Given enough time humans would do that better than the AI imo

Come on, do you think hooking a robot to the keyboard is the hard part? Do you want 5 fingers too? And if watching the screen, do you want it to have bad eyes like we do too (good resolution only in the center)?

Yea, I think having a robot use fingers to manipulate the keyboard like a human is a very hard part

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#55

Post by erk__ »

abhiminator wrote: post #19

This is indescribably exciting. Can't wait to see OpenAI Five tear through the human players just like what the single bot did to 'Dendi' -- a professional gamer -- during the International 7 tournament in August last year. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiOopO9jTZw

When you post that you should also add how fast players were able to find a strategy that the bot could not understand and make it lose the game.

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#56

Post by ufo »

In the last game of the series the bots were forced to play an intentionally terrible hero lineup. The humans finally got to win a game but more interesting for me was that the times when the AI did seemingly crazy things were much more common.

I wonder if this is an artifact of the training methodology: maybe if your team is very weak then your choices are also weaker, and reinforcement learning doesn't work as well?

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#57

Post by stale2002 »

darepublic wrote: post #50
21 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next AI will always be much better (see AlphaGo progression). Humans, not so much, as in all top-level competitions, human abilities improve minimally at the top, because we have millions of humans competing against each other until the plateau of human performance is reached. Then you can push that a bit more with drugs (see doping in sports). And after that, you are pretty much done. So it's only a matter of ti…

I agree that AIs will eventually win. But I only consider human beings beaten when the AI is interfacing with the machine the same way as humans -- looking at the monitor, and inputting commands through keyboard and mouse. That is on a different level than just hooking into a log of events and calculating your next move. Given enough time humans would do that better than the AI imo

I mean, interacting with the mouse and keyboard isn't the interesting part.

Like, imagine if this was a chess AI, and we were trying to determine who was better at chess, humans or AI. Would you make the AI use robotic hands to move the pieces? No, because thats not the interesting part of chess. The interesting part of chess is the strategy.

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#58

Post by tux3 »

ufo wrote: post #56

In the last game of the series the bots were forced to play an intentionally terrible hero lineup. The humans finally got to win a game but more interesting for me was that the times when the AI did seemingly crazy things were much more common. I wonder if this is an artifact of the training methodology: maybe if your team is very weak then your choices are also weaker, and reinforcement learning doesn't work as well…

It reminds me of the Go AIs going on tilt when they're far behind.

When the win percentage for Go AIs gets to around 5%, every action it can take results in a losing game so it can't make the difference between normal play and super strange moves anymore.

When every choice is really bad, humans tend to still go with their normal strategy and wait for their chance to turn things around, but bots assume the opponent is playing perfectly, so they act like their winrate is going to stay near zero no matter what they do.

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#59

Post by RodericDay »

stale2002 wrote: post #57
darepublic wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that AIs will eventually win. But I only consider human beings beaten when the AI is interfacing with the machine the same way as humans -- looking at the monitor, and inputting commands through keyboard and mouse. That is on a different level than just hooking into a log of events and calculating your next move. Given enough time humans would do that better than the AI imo

I mean, interacting with the mouse and keyboard isn't the interesting part. Like, imagine if this was a chess AI, and we were trying to determine who was better at chess, humans or AI. Would you make the AI use robotic hands to move the pieces? No, because thats not the interesting part of chess. The interesting part of chess is the strategy.

frame and position perfect spell casting is like an aimhack in counterstrike

bots are really really good at FPSs with zero ML, just because its easy to point and click at the right position if you're fed its coordinates directly

Re: OpenAI bots competing against Humans right now

#60

Post by dooglius »

ufo wrote: post #56

In the last game of the series the bots were forced to play an intentionally terrible hero lineup. The humans finally got to win a game but more interesting for me was that the times when the AI did seemingly crazy things were much more common. I wonder if this is an artifact of the training methodology: maybe if your team is very weak then your choices are also weaker, and reinforcement learning doesn't work as well…

That's probably part of it, but another explanation would be that the AI wouldn't choose such a lineup on its own, and so it doesn't train on the relevant gameplay.
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