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What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

theferrett.livejournal.com

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Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#121
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't 'watching it burn'. They were protecting the neighboring houses. The ones that -had- paid to support the fire department.

The firefighting fee was $75. Wouldn't it have been more "economical" to accept what he offered to pay, on the spot, and save the man's house? Instead of teaching him a lesson? He was willing to pay thousands. I mean, I am all for free market, but libertarians are pushing the limits of common sense just to maintain intellectual consistency. Isn't there a room for "late fee", or "environmental damage", or just good ol…

> He was willing to pay thousands.

Any agreement to pay while his house is burning is unenforceable.

I've been in a similar position. Once the emergency was over, the person decided that it really wasn't worth what he agreed at the time.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I promise that if you don't pay your taxes and refuse any additional fines, people with guns will knock on your door.

Possibly, but first they'll file a tax lien, allowing them to garnish your wages or bank account etc., and make your credit record radioactive until it's lifted. If you've ignored a court summons, that might result in an arrest warrant providing for you to be taken into custody at a police stop. In general, you need to owe them quite a lot of money before they will go to the bother of looking for you, which is expens…

> Possibly, but first they'll file a tax lien, allowing them to garnish your wages or bank account etc., and make your credit record radioactive until it's lifted. If you've ignored a court summons, that might result in an arrest warrant providing for you to be taken into custody at a police stop.

Actually, what they do is evict you and sell "your" house.

That's what happened to the previous owner of my house.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#123
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No the insurance was $75. See the difference? Everyone's small fee upfront is what purchased all the equipment. If you wait 'til after, then you've got nothing when you need it. And a man who won't pay up $75, will he pay thousands once you've already put the fire out ?

Yes, so when his house catches on fire and you can put it out, you hand him a bill for $5000 or whatever the cost of a fire crew for several hours is. And if he doesn't pay, you sue him. You get the cost of providing the service back, he still has a house. Allowing the dwelling to burn to the ground just results in a destruction of wealth for zero gain.

> Yes, so when his house catches on fire and you can put it out, you hand him a bill for $5000 or whatever the cost of a fire crew for several hours is.

That policy means that you can't afford to have a fire crew. The marginal cost associated with putting out fires is a small fraction of the cost of having a fire department.

> And if he doesn't pay, you sue him.

And you lose because contracts under duress are unenforceable.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#124
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, but first they'll file a tax lien, allowing them to garnish your wages or bank account etc., and make your credit record radioactive until it's lifted. If you've ignored a court summons, that might result in an arrest warrant providing for you to be taken into custody at a police stop. In general, you need to owe them quite a lot of money before they will go to the bother of looking for you, which is expens…

> Possibly, but first they'll file a tax lien, allowing them to garnish your wages or bank account etc., and make your credit record radioactive until it's lifted. If you've ignored a court summons, that might result in an arrest warrant providing for you to be taken into custody at a police stop. Actually, what they do is evict you and sell "your" house. That's what happened to the previous owner of my house.

And if the previous owner of your house had refused to leave before the final eviction date, police officers would have come to remove em.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#125
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want anyone telling me I can't build on land I own just because I can't get fire protection.

Tough, is what I think. Build wherever you want, but expect to pay extra for putting fire departments in the position you're putting them in.

Well, most people that live in an area that doesn't have fire coverage know this and understand it. I guess these people didn't (or maybe when your house is one fire you forget). What I am saying is as long as you understand this everything is fine, for both sides.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#126
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But nobody is suggesting they should have just put the fire out for free . They should have put the fire out and billed him a sum many times higher than what the insurance premium would have been. The idea of insurance is to cap your liability, not to be a precondition for receiving any assistance.

Where does that logic end? If I build a house in Paulville, TX ("a gated community consisting of 100% Ron Paul supporters" on unincorporated land in West Texas), is the fire department of Dell City, TX obligated to put out fires there? How does that make sense?

Assuming it's the nearest town and someone in Paulville begs them to do so at any price, yes. And then you hand them a fat bill and if they don't pay, enforce it via the court, something you seem not to have considered.

I am in no way suggesting that someone who is too cheap to buy a reasonable fee like $75 should get bailed out when they suddenly want in because their house is on fire, that's nothing more than rewarding irresponsibility. But it is not the only alternative to letting the house burn, a false dichotomy if ever I saw one.

There are two reasons to require that the FD respond if they can reasonably do so. One is economic; the limited damage and bill for extinguishing a fire might total to a $15,000 loss for the homeowner. If household earnings are $30,000/yr that's 6 months of work to pay it all back. But if the house burns to the ground, the loss is much higher; even in rural TN it's probably at least $75,000 up in smoke. That's a much bigger loss to the economy. Visualize it as a big bunch of dollar bills laid out along the ground, that starts burning from one end. I'm standing there with a bucket of water and you're offering me $5000 to put out the fire, which will leave the owner with 80% of the total, but I refuse and let it all burn because I'm still upset about your prior refusal to put down $75. Does that seem like a sensible policy? Am I somehow better off by your loss?

The other reason is legalist. The fire department has an effective monopoly on putting out fires, because only they have the necessary trucks and expertise. The homeowner didn't have the option of calling a competing fire department the way you would call a different cab company if the first one was unhelpful. Nor could one easily put out the fire oneself. In such a case, there's often a greater legal obligation to assist than usual.

Here, the fire department's non-action resulted in a much greater economic loss to the homeowner than if they had turned up and billed him. And they could have billed him, because a principle called quantum meruit means you can get a court to enforce payment for providing a necessary service even if no contract exists. Arguably, that extra economic loss, which only the fire department could have prevented, was intentionally inflicted. You can bet a case like that will go to court, and make the whole situation even more expensive.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#127
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But nobody is suggesting they should have just put the fire out for free . They should have put the fire out and billed him a sum many times higher than what the insurance premium would have been. The idea of insurance is to cap your liability, not to be a precondition for receiving any assistance.

For all we know they may have done this in the past and nobody ever paid. I mean, they didn't pay $75 a year and now they have a damaged house... seems like a good chance they won't pay afterwards when the amount is a lot higher. It isn't like they allowed people to die in the fire, it was just a house. Just like if you wreck your car without coverage, you will be the one paying for it. In the end, I'm sure this isn'…

Then you sue, and the court places a lien on their house/earnings/assets. You'll be able to collect sooner or later, even after bankruptcy in many cases.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The self-identified Republicans I am acquainted with are not looking to meet in the middle on these three issues. They believe in private schools, a free market for labor with no protection for unions, and a system of private and deregulated health insurance. I don't think these are inherently bad ideas, either; I just don't agree with them. (For what it's worth, I believe in a strong social safety net, and I don't b…

Think about that for a second: if roughly half of this country actually felt the same way on all those issues, how could Bush have run on spending more on public schools and placing them under greater federal control, how would we have the many thousands of labor-protection laws we have, and why would we still have things like Medicare and Medicaid, just to start with? They don't. Your acquaintances are rather staunc…

Because incoming administrations/Congresses (Congressii?) do not begin with a clean slate, for one thing; and also because many congressional procedures require a supermajority, particularly in the senate.

I agree that there are more moderates than fringe thinkers in both parties, but the fringe thinkers tend to make things more rather than less partisan and the moderates are not much good at telling them to go fly a kite. So this year the Republican House candidates are claiming they'll abolish the Department of Education if they win - likely an empty boast, but to me it's exasperating that the idea is even up for discussion.

Edit: Democrats' fetish for burying small businesses in paperwork is equally exasperating to me.

Re: What life is like in a state where firefighters are paid voluntarily

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about that for a second: if roughly half of this country actually felt the same way on all those issues, how could Bush have run on spending more on public schools and placing them under greater federal control, how would we have the many thousands of labor-protection laws we have, and why would we still have things like Medicare and Medicaid, just to start with? They don't. Your acquaintances are rather staunc…

Because incoming administrations/Congresses (Congressii?) do not begin with a clean slate, for one thing; and also because many congressional procedures require a supermajority, particularly in the senate. I agree that there are more moderates than fringe thinkers in both parties, but the fringe thinkers tend to make things more rather than less partisan and the moderates are not much good at telling them to go fly a…

Republicans have no less a fetish, in practice.

Just as in practice, Republicans have no interest in the abolishing of the DoE, chest-beating silliness aside. Fringers say a lot of things and some pols might try to appeal to them, but at the end of the day, it's what the mainstream wants - in both parties - that rules. Some larger groups may have occasional influence, but only when they can convince other people (at least temporarily) that they are right.

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