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Ask HN: What is going on?

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Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#31

Post by csomar »

tptacek wrote: post #29
csomar wrote: post #26

Billions of people truly believe in the existence of a super-natural creature up in the sky. Some devoting time, energy and tons of money. Not something that should surprise given the scale.

This is a facile and offensive argument. Non-atheists are not the intellectual equivalent of Holocaust deniers or antivax advocates. All you're doing is inviting religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN.

Apologies if it was perceived this way. But I don't see how my comment link non-atheists with Holocaust deniers? My point is: Some people are going to believe things which are wrong (from your perspective) and that can happen at large scales. There are extremes (like flat earth) or socially-emotionally driven (like religious believes).

I say give anyone the freedom to have any opinion as long as he doesn't incite violence or act on it.

For antivax it is really a complicated one. I don't have a problem with antivax advocates but I have a problem with parents that don't vaccinate their kids. And I think the government should act on the best interest of its minor citizens.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#32

Post by tptacek »

csomar wrote: post #31
tptacek wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a facile and offensive argument. Non-atheists are not the intellectual equivalent of Holocaust deniers or antivax advocates. All you're doing is inviting religious flamewar, which is not allowed on HN.

Apologies if it was perceived this way. But I don't see how my comment link non-atheists with Holocaust deniers? My point is: Some people are going to believe things which are wrong (from your perspective) and that can happen at large scales. There are extremes (like flat earth) or socially-emotionally driven (like religious believes). I say give anyone the freedom to have any opinion as long as he doesn't incite vio…

I'm sorry I misinterpreted you. My reaction to Holocaust deniers and, come to think of it, to antivaxxers is visceral, and I saw an equivalence argument that wasn't really being made. I'll work on being less jumpy!

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#33

Post by marktangotango »

bjourne wrote: post #24

I feel your pain but unfortunately I have no answers. There are people with these insane opinions and they are spreading. Two decades ago a school had a live debate between a teacher and a student Holocaust denier. The teacher thoroughly demolished the students arguments which made him look like a complete fool. Today the student (Björn Björkqvist) is the leader of one of the largest Nazi groups and the teacher sever…

Sorry it’s not clear but why does the teacher regret debating him?

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#34

Post by your-nanny »

sasaf5 wrote: post #15
benbreen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley, had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely distrust of the media and expert knowledge…

Deep in my heart I still believe that the flat earth society is a massive joke on conspiracies, and one day they will come out and say "ha!!! you thought we were serious? super-gotcha!!!".

i sincerely believe that many conspiracy theories start as jokes or pranks. there are so many kooks in the world and now we are all connected. write and true believers you will find.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#36

Post by open-source-ux »

htwillie wrote: post #18

Why do you believe what you believe is true? Independant study? Easiest possible explanation? Herd effect? Fear of standing out? It's rare that you can change another persons mind. But you can try to understand why they believe what they do. You present vaccinations as an example, with "decades of evidence supporting them." That's far less time than evidence supported a flat earth. The thing is, some vaccines work pr…

In many countries vaccines will only be licenced after rigorous safety testing and extensive clinical trials. Those clinical trials will usually include thousands of participants. After a new vaccine is introduced, it will continue to be monitored.

It's simply not true that "Vaccine makers can literally solubilize dog shit and call it a vaccine."

This information site from Oxford University provides an excellent summary of how vaccines are tested, licensed and monitored in the UK. The process is probably similar in many other countries:

http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vaccine-development

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#37

Post by l33tbro »

phakding wrote: post #19

Majority of people attach themselves to a viewpoint based on either emotions or because someone they trust and respect told them so. And once they do, they can't separate themselves from their views. If you try to attack their beliefs, they take it as affront to themselves. When that happens, no amounts of facts will change their mind. Instead they will just shut you out and their beliefs will now be more firm. I wou…

My only technique is to calmly ask them questions based on their beliefs. I also don't really set out to change minds, but occasionally it can be amusing to watch people walk you through the goofy logic of their fringe beliefs.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#38

Post by scott_s »

Something the skeptical community talks about when dealing with conspiracy theories is that it's not enough to counter arguments and correct factual claims. You need to give them an entirely different narrative. They've bought into an entire narrative, a particular view of how everything works. THey're not going to let go of that if they can't replace it with something else.

Re: Ask HN: What is going on?

#39

Post by scott_s »

sasaf5 wrote: post #15
benbreen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a really bright student in one of my classes past year who was a moon landing denialist. She said her best friend, who was a student at Berkeley, had convinced her and was also a flat earther. I was shocked, until I learned that they'd been indoctrinated via r/conspiracy and YouTube. Now I see that stuff as a subset of the problems with social media in general - namely distrust of the media and expert knowledge…

Deep in my heart I still believe that the flat earth society is a massive joke on conspiracies, and one day they will come out and say "ha!!! you thought we were serious? super-gotcha!!!".

Many people are not joking. Which I use as a check on any time I start thinking "Surely people won't believe..." There are people who believe the world is not round, which implies that there are not many limits on what some people won't believe.
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