How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email • Hacker News Board

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#11

Post by aaron-lebo » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

wayanon wrote: post #9

How is it moral for people to get rich from imprisonment?

How is it moral to make money off of selling shoddy products and services to people and not actually holding up your end of the deal? But that happens all the time. It's the way of business for many companies. Coinbase takes money from its customers and doesn't give them anything back for months at a time while itself becoming more valuable by the day. That's not moral, but they'll have a front page posts over the next month, celebrating some venture of theirs. Or some CEO who is known for regularly exaggerating/lying or calling people they don't agree with slurs will have people rabidly defending their honor when that rich person has done nothing for them. That's not moral.

When the top of society is greedy, you can't expect the lowest rungs to be any better. We barely care about people if they are contributing members of society (unless you've got money), we sure as hell aren't gonna care about prisoners.

It's just hypercapitalism. You sound surprised, but it's business. If you can exploit, you do exploit as far as legally possible and then make excuses later. I bet you the contractors have some great justifications for why what they do isn't immoral and is even good and necessary.

Short answer: it's not moral, but we're greedy and it's hard to admit that.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#12

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:02 PM UTC

wayanon wrote: post #9

How is it moral for people to get rich from imprisonment?

[deleted]

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#13

Post by betterunix2 » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:04 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #3

It still amazes me the human waste of US prison sentences. Armed robbery in the UK for a 17 year old, from memory, is likely to attract significantly less than 10 years of actual time served. Yet in the UK we are not overrun with armed robbers. I think the deterrent effect of a long sentence is rather lost on a 17 year-old who is already making bad life decisions.

The problem in the US is that there was a period of time, still somewhat ongoing, where politicians could score a few points by promising to be "tough on crime." George H. W. Bush once went on TV to say that if longer sentences and mandatory minimum sentences meant paying for more prisons, we would pay for more prisons. One of the worst things about tough on crime politics is the feedback loop it creates -- if your opponent is tough on crime, you would have to be even more tough on crime, so the concept spread across the political spectrum (Charles Schumer is a proud "law enforcement hawk").

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#14

Post by kwjenfo » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:04 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #4

jimnotgym wrote: post #3

It still amazes me the human waste of US prison sentences. Armed robbery in the UK for a 17 year old, from memory, is likely to attract significantly less than 10 years of actual time served. Yet in the UK we are not overrun with armed robbers. I think the deterrent effect of a long sentence is rather lost on a 17 year-old who is already making bad life decisions.

The idea is not a deterrent. The idea is if someone spends most of their life in prison they are not going to be able to commit crimes outside. Effective or not, the reasoning is fairly straightforward.

"Effective or not...". That's the problem. The sentence is vengeance. When he comes out of prison at 27, expect him to go back. But, I guess people are happy to spend billions of dollars to keep people in prisons than trying to reform them that would help society.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#15

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:11 PM UTC

fwn wrote: post #6

Retric wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is not a deterrent. The idea is if someone spends most of their life in prison they are not going to be able to commit crimes outside. Effective or not, the reasoning is fairly straightforward.

A sentence has always a correcting, an deterring, a protecting and a vengeance component. (Not very educated on law though. That's what I learned in my mandatory philosophy of law class as an undergrad long ago.)

The US is very heavy on protecting and vengeance. There is no interest in correcting and it seems harsh sentences don't deter much either.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#16

Post by swaggyBoatswain » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #8

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #7

This is an interesting read While profiting off inmates may seem predatory to some extent, it does offer a service that was not there before the dotcom age. When we look at prison communication back in the day, it was through locally wired telephone systems. The loved one or family member had to physically be present to speak to the person, but with technology something like an ekiosk (essentially the same types you…

> but with technology something like an ekiosk (essentially the same types you see at newer airports, olive garden, etc) What's an ekiosk? And Olive Garden is a fast food chain isn't it? What do these two things have to do with each other and with prisons? And why do you need ekiosk or fast food chains to solve this? You just need any two tablets and an internet connection.

Ekiosk is just a short term that people use IIRC, similar to "drones" and "quadcopters".

Its just a tablet (using a samsung galaxy normally), that is encased and mounted physically. Similar to what you would see at bestbuy when window shopping but more robust.

I've seen them in McDonalds and some innovation centers in specific Airports (https://www.afar.com/magazine/the-future-of-airport-dining-i...). These restaurants utilize empty-dead space in larger central walkway aisles in airports. The one I'm thinking of is in Newark, NJ , I went to that airport on a layover to switzerland last year.

Many innovations in restaurants get passed along to prisons after the fact IMO. The demands for higher market innovations builds unique solutions that end up getting pushed to other industries such as prisons.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#17

Post by blindwatchmaker » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

Prison labor is the natural next step in the race to the bottom for wages.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#18

Post by aaron-lebo » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:18 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #13

jimnotgym wrote: post #3

It still amazes me the human waste of US prison sentences. Armed robbery in the UK for a 17 year old, from memory, is likely to attract significantly less than 10 years of actual time served. Yet in the UK we are not overrun with armed robbers. I think the deterrent effect of a long sentence is rather lost on a 17 year-old who is already making bad life decisions.

The problem in the US is that there was a period of time, still somewhat ongoing, where politicians could score a few points by promising to be "tough on crime." George H. W. Bush once went on TV to say that if longer sentences and mandatory minimum sentences meant paying for more prisons, we would pay for more prisons. One of the worst things about tough on crime politics is the feedback loop it creates -- if your o…

This is easy to observe in judicial elections where said judges get tough prior to elections.

But there's more to it than that. The US system doesn't rehabilitate prisoners well, so letting a person who was committing armed robbery (this isn't a small offense, it's terrorizing innocent people) at 17 out at 22 isn't much better than letting them out at 27. The chance of recidivism is high, and so letting them out early is likely to backfire.

You'll recall that Bush did successfully use recidivism against Dukakis in 88. He abused that to win politically, but the system failed somewhere.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#19

Post by aaron-lebo » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

blindwatchmaker wrote: post #17

Prison labor is the natural next step in the race to the bottom for wages.

It's been that way for a long, long time, but it's only useful for cheap products (the labor is inconsistent for obvious reasons) and is stuff that may eventually be automated.

Thankfully there's a real limit for abuse. It should be a declining problem.

Re: How Companies Make Millions Charging Prisoners to Send an Email

#20

Post by dplgk » Sat, Aug 04, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

30 years for armed robbery? I've seen less for murder. Maybe Kim Kardashian can get him pardoned.

On topic: if you see prison as a punishment then paying for email is part of it. If you see prison as a place to store bad people but treat them fairly while they're there, then I guess it's morally wrong. As the risk of whataboutism, charging for email is really the least of our moral problems with prisons. People are profiting greatly from the prisons themselves.