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As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

nytimes.com

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Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#181

Post by extralego »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #106
reaperducer wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? In this case, the city designations are important because each year the city divides a pot of money that goes to supplemental infrastructure improvements in each neighborhood. Because it's supplemental money, it is a fixed amount for each neighborhood. If a neighborhood's boundaries increase, then money available for…

That's a good reason for why the city shouldn't arbitrarily change its official definitions of neighborhood boundaries without also changing budget allocations. Why shouldn't everyone else define neighborhoods however they feel is most useful to them?

Why shouldn’t I be able to change your username to “daveFNfuck”?

How many people will need to start calling you “daveFNfuck” before HN mods should change your username to “daveFNfuck”?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#182

Post by mschuster91 »

extralego wrote: post #180
ErikAugust wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical." --- "Currently the predominant business model for commercial search engines is advertising... We expect that commercial search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers..." - Sergey Brin and Larry Page, 1998 http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ba…

Nice link. It is incredibly interesting that the Google founders were so outspoken against advertising. I’d love a detailed account of the process which derailed these moral ideals. Anyone?

> I’d love a detailed account of the process which derailed these moral ideals. Anyone?

It's relatively easy and fits into what Google has been doing: they want advertising to fit the (current) needs of the consumer, and the better the fit, the more money they can command for ad slots - compared to the "old guard" which simply firehosed advertising around without any kind of conversion tracking or effectiveness.

For example, when I'm in Munich and searching for a haircut and I get ads for a haircutter in Berlin, that ad money is wasted for the advertiser, and I as a customer lose one potential spot for a Munich based haircutter. When Google now shows me an ad for a Munich haircutter, or even better, one that is less than 5min of walking away, then both the haircutter benefits (from my haircut) and I benefit (for not having to walk more than I need to).

Or, to expand on this example, metadata like opening hours - advertising for a store that is closed is wasted money when I need an open store.

All that acquisition of ever more data is what drives Google: the more data they possess, the more fine they can tailor your advertising, and thus be geared towards both advertisers and users at the same time. After all, if the ads aren't effective, the advertisers will pack up shop and leave, and the users will be frustrated because they don't get what they need.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#183

Post by danudey »

extralego wrote: post #180
ErikAugust wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical." --- "Currently the predominant business model for commercial search engines is advertising... We expect that commercial search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers..." - Sergey Brin and Larry Page, 1998 http://infolab.stanford.edu/~ba…

Nice link. It is incredibly interesting that the Google founders were so outspoken against advertising. I’d love a detailed account of the process which derailed these moral ideals. Anyone?

The progression makes sense.

1. Let's make a better search engine. 2. Let's put ads on our search engine. 3. Let's create our own ad network so that we can control what ads look like, so they're unobtrusive. 4. People like our ads, let's put them on other people's pages. 5. People want more interesting ads, let's expand out. 6. Our business relies on ads, we need to collect more user data so we can focus ads even better than our competitors.

By doing advertising 'better' they could make a better product. Unfortunately, they went down the exact same path that other advertisers did: getting more invasive and more aggressive and less user-centric. I hate slippery slope arguments, but this seems to apply in retrospect.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#184

Post by Brakenshire »

josefresco wrote: post #57

"It’s degrading to the reputation of our area" How so? I missed how or why this is upsetting to local residents.

People don’t like having their area renamed from underneath them. Probably it makes them feel alienated from their home area.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#185

Post by extralego »

danudey wrote: post #183
extralego wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice link. It is incredibly interesting that the Google founders were so outspoken against advertising. I’d love a detailed account of the process which derailed these moral ideals. Anyone?

The progression makes sense. 1. Let's make a better search engine. 2. Let's put ads on our search engine. 3. Let's create our own ad network so that we can control what ads look like, so they're unobtrusive. 4. People like our ads, let's put them on other people's pages. 5. People want more interesting ads, let's expand out. 6. Our business relies on ads, we need to collect more user data so we can focus ads even bet…

Alright. So it was just a flat out mistake to think morality was considered even in the slightest.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#186

Post by daveFNbuck »

extralego wrote: post #181
daveFNbuck wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good reason for why the city shouldn't arbitrarily change its official definitions of neighborhood boundaries without also changing budget allocations. Why shouldn't everyone else define neighborhoods however they feel is most useful to them?

Why shouldn’t I be able to change your username to “daveFNfuck”? How many people will need to start calling you “daveFNfuck” before HN mods should change your username to “daveFNfuck”?

You can't change my username, but you don't have to refer to me by my official username. Furthermore, it's ok that my government ID doesn't say daveFNbuck even though I'm using it as my name here.

There are almost no situations where people refer to me by the name in my government records, and that's fine. Those records still work for their intended purpose and there's no need to update them to match my nicknames or aliases.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#187

Post by daveFNbuck »

extralego wrote: post #179
Spivak wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody/Everybody, if people start calling a region by a name it makes sense to record the usage and put it on the map. Sure, it probably makes perfections and planners twitch but it makes maps more useful.

I notice a lot of Americans love referring to Canada as “Canadia”. I can’t make a bit of sense out of it, but by your logic we should update the maps already.

That's how we do it for Japan and Germany.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#188

Post by RileyJames »

sandworm101 wrote: post #132
reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

>> The company declined to detail how some place names came about, though some appear to have resulted from mistakes by researchers, rebrandings by real estate agents — or just outright fiction. Every lawyer knows what is happening. Copyright 101 - you cannot copyright facts, a big deal for mapmakers. Google is pulling data from a map created by someone else. They are quiet about it because they do not want whoever o…

Have you tried registering with “Google My Business”? I update a local businesses address though that (when they moved location) and it was updated on the maps immediately (possibly a few days delay at most).

Who refused you? What other method did you try?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#189

Post by bigiain »

extralego wrote: post #185
danudey wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progression makes sense. 1. Let's make a better search engine. 2. Let's put ads on our search engine. 3. Let's create our own ad network so that we can control what ads look like, so they're unobtrusive. 4. People like our ads, let's put them on other people's pages. 5. People want more interesting ads, let's expand out. 6. Our business relies on ads, we need to collect more user data so we can focus ads even bet…

Alright. So it was just a flat out mistake to think morality was considered even in the slightest.

For the love of money

People will steal from their mother

For the love of money

People will rob their own brother

For the love of money

People can't even walk the street

Because they never know who in the world they're gonna beat

For that lean, mean, mean green

-- For The Love Of Money, O'Jays

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#190

Post by gt_ »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #186
extralego wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn’t I be able to change your username to “daveFNfuck”? How many people will need to start calling you “daveFNfuck” before HN mods should change your username to “daveFNfuck”?

You can't change my username, but you don't have to refer to me by my official username. Furthermore, it's ok that my government ID doesn't say daveFNbuck even though I'm using it as my name here. There are almost no situations where people refer to me by the name in my government records, and that's fine. Those records still work for their intended purpose and there's no need to update them to match my nicknames or…

> You can’t change my username.

But what if they could?

The issue here isn’t that Google got the name wrong, but that they actively chose a new one and could change it to the new one because the public depends on a private entity’s map system and that private entity is able to manipulate the representation in their own private interest.

>Ifthe name “The East Cut” either, but they already had one and preferred it. In many of these name changes, the effects can mean rapid mass development, raised rents and evictions, etc.) For you, this name change would mean at least a lot of explaining how this obnoxious poster on Hacker News was trying to make some disparate point but it has nothing to do with your qualification for the job, getting your account banned from Social media sites. You could start a new one but you’d lose all your posts and followers. At the end of the day, you should probably have been able to stop me, but you couldn’t.

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