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Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

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Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#141

Post by insickness »

moduspol wrote: post #134
DonaldFisk wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income proposals that stand any chance of being adopted are for it to replace other forms of government provided unearned income (unemployment benefit, old age pension), and are approximately revenue neutral, so those out of work and claiming benefits would receive the same amount, those working or earning private unearned income would on average see their tax bills rise by the same amount as the basic income t…

I've heard those theories and am quite skeptical, but they don't relate to my claims. My point is that even if everything you claim works out exactly as hoped, that will only be on day one. It is not the case that a growing majority of voters will simply be content with whatever is handed to them and be grateful. There will be ongoing debates about what that number should be, but it will almost never go down. And I'v…

Once implemented, it will be impossible to turn UBI off. In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say.

And if we think people will be happier when handed money that allows them to not work, we are sadly delusional. No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#142

Post by moduspol »

insickness wrote: post #141
moduspol wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard those theories and am quite skeptical, but they don't relate to my claims. My point is that even if everything you claim works out exactly as hoped, that will only be on day one. It is not the case that a growing majority of voters will simply be content with whatever is handed to them and be grateful. There will be ongoing debates about what that number should be, but it will almost never go down. And I'v…

Once implemented, it will be impossible to turn UBI off. In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say. And if we think people will be happier when handed money that allows them to not work, we are sadly delusional. No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society.

I mostly agree, with a few caveats:

> In fact, they'll never take away existing welfare programs in favor of UBI--they'll just add UBI on top of it. Think of the children, they'll say.

They won't even have to say that.

The idea that the poorest among us have the financial literacy to be simply given money, budget appropriately, and spend with proper prioritization is empirically false. That's a big part of the value of food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicaid, and similar programs: They only apply to a very specific thing. You can't plan poorly and spend too much on your food stamps and be unable to come up with rent.

With UBI replacing those programs, it will happen, so I expect the "you won't need those programs with UBI" premise to be dropped pretty early on.

> No one is happier NOT working. People are happy when they are productive members of society.

I think people can be happy as long as they think they are contributing to society, even if they are actively making it worse. For a lot of them, I think there will be plenty of union power and political activism among this large group of bankrolled, but unemployed people with plenty of free time. Those people will be able to find happiness and meaning through activism.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#143

Post by magduf »

eikenberry wrote: post #105
magduf wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is simple: legislate so the very wealthy can't avoid it, while remaining in the country. It's really not that hard: if they have assets here and reside here, then you tax them, and seize them if necessary. The only reason this isn't done is because too many people vote for politicians who pass laws favorable to the very wealthy.

Legislation unfortunately involves legislators, people who really like the money those wealthy people give them. As long as we have legalized bribery I don't see it happening.

Well, just as I said before, it's really not hard. Ban bribery. Plenty of other nations don't have legalized bribery (such as just about any western European nation), so it's not like it's an impossible task.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#144

Post by magduf »

xienze wrote: post #90
magduf wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is simple: legislate so the very wealthy can't avoid it, while remaining in the country. It's really not that hard: if they have assets here and reside here, then you tax them, and seize them if necessary. The only reason this isn't done is because too many people vote for politicians who pass laws favorable to the very wealthy.

> The solution is simple: legislate so the very wealthy can't avoid it, while remaining in the country. ... then they'll leave the country. I don't think you've thought this through.

1) As the other poster said, how do you take real estate out of the country?

2) Where are they going to go? Somalia? Other countries are going to tax them at least as much. These rich people aren't idle rich, they're rich because they're working in some capacity. You can't do that in Somalia. They get their wealth from being located here. That means they can be taxed here.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#145

Post by dragontamer »

briandear wrote: post #23
dragontamer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with having UBI for 2 years and then suddenly having it cut off? Jack London, the famous homeless / hobo writer of "Call of the Wild" and "White Fang", was only able to write his first book because of the support of community libraries and random strangers who gave him a bed occasionally. Eventually, he was able to pull himself out of poverty and become one of the most famous writers ever. If you can hel…

So Jack London had UBI? What is stopping someone else from doing exactly what Jack did? The government shouldn’t be a charity — that’s what charities are for.

Charities are inconsistent across the nation.

If Charities can rescue people some of the times, then the US Government can apply those principles and rescue people all of the time.

A good idea can be done by a Charity, by your neighbor, or by the US Government. It doesn't matter who does it, as long as it gets done.

> What is stopping someone else from doing exactly what Jack did?

Well, eventually Jack London ran into Hobo and anti-loitering laws and landed in jail. Jack London then traveled to areas without Hobo laws and anti-loitering laws.

Although, the times were different. Jack London was homeless due to the depression of the 1890s, and the number of Hobos were so large that they grouped together and formed "Hobo Code" and kinda their own society. Ideally, we should never have that huge number of homeless people ever again.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#146

Post by dragontamer »

privacypoller wrote: post #63
dragontamer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with having UBI for 2 years and then suddenly having it cut off? Jack London, the famous homeless / hobo writer of "Call of the Wild" and "White Fang", was only able to write his first book because of the support of community libraries and random strangers who gave him a bed occasionally. Eventually, he was able to pull himself out of poverty and become one of the most famous writers ever. If you can hel…

>> What's wrong with having UBI for 2 years and then suddenly having it cut off? re: Ontario's cancelled "experiment" - the recipient they talked to felt she had been "betrayed" and "wasn't going to be able to make ends meet" So after less than 2 years it transformed from a narrow experiment into a entitlement, like many (most?) government programs. It was no longer treated as a "top-up" but a core component of survi…

> re: Ontario's cancelled "experiment" - the recipient they talked to felt she had been "betrayed" and "wasn't going to be able to make ends meet"

Well yeah. But that person's life is surely for the better because the program existed for those two years?

I don't want to demean that person's feelings. But two years with basic income is strictly better than two years without basic income.

If the only argument against UBI is that "Penny-pinchers in the future might shut down the project", that isn't really a counter-argument at all.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#147

Post by dragontamer »

zdragnar wrote: post #120
TooBrokeToBeg wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are trying to use a universal solution to a specific problem Wat? It (UBI) is a self described universal solution. Inability to avoid becoming degenerate (where your daily situation will gradually worsen) in the western world is not a specific problem. The idea that leveraging UBI for 2 years (which is oddly specific) is beneficial, is laughable. Almost every degenerate (not a pejorative usage here) started fro…

Based on my association with welfare workers (and one in particular that specifically works with the homeless) "visible" homelessness is most frequently a result of mental illness and / or drug abuse (which renders a person roughly at the same capability level as if they had mental illness). Throwing money at them won't change their condition so much as providing treatment for the underlying cause that allowed them t…

> (aka have a savings account built up for emergencies)

As far as I can see it, "not having a savings account" is primarily a function of money.

Intelligent people have low savings because rent is higher than their take-home pay. Remember that the average American family lives under $50,000 / year wages. That's a family, which typically includes TWO wage-earners.

Average wages is below $35k / year. Drop out a bunch for taxes and it becomes difficult to build up savings.

Go to "below average" jobs and you straight up are unable to afford rent, unless you band people together somehow.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#148

Post by TomMarius »

jostylr wrote: post #125
TomMarius wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If one is against this idea, then ask why any investor of money into a company should get money back from it when they did no explicit work for it? Because they did. They put their capital (that they worked for, or their ancestors did) at risk so someone could use it. It's only fair that they get a cut.

If you trace the history of that capital to a violent past, such as slave owners or government eviction of natives or violent suppression of people's rights or unfair distribution of wealth by the government or redlining, ... is it still fair? If fairness is a concern, one would seem to be led, at the very least, to want to wipe the slate clean for every new individual; no transference of wealth or privilege from one…

If you can trace inherited money back to an immoral past, then it's not fair, IMO. However there really isn't much of this kind of wealth anymore.

I completely disagree with you about fairness though. I'm working so my kids can have a comfortable life, that's almost the only point of the work I'm doing, and it's not fair to not let me work for them.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#149

Post by lolsal »

jpindar wrote: post #129
lolsal wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the concern for what kind of welfare programs to implement (or keep) even with UBI - for example, if I blow all of my UBI on gambling/drugs/alcohol/electronics, will society let me starve to death in the street?

What happens now if you blow all your money from social security etc.? Why would that change?

I really don't know what happens - my point was that there will still be need for things like homeless shelters, food programs, etc.

Re: Basic Income caused crime to drop by 40% and strengthened workforce?

#150

Post by RangerScience »

dahdum wrote: post #103
RangerScience wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The additional complication is problematic, as is the additional control / disempowerment. Such as: - Who decides the list of goods? - Who provides them? - Who delivers them? Ex: Pizza as a vegetable. Sure, you'll have people make shit decisions - but part of the point (IMHO) of UBI is that a shit decision this month doesn't have to screw you next month. My brother also always points out that "shrinkage" (from retail…

Yes, it's a program that is at high risk of overexpansion like many others. It would be constantly attacked for not providing "healthy" options like fresh fruit, organic flour, more variety and whatnot. I just wish we could do stuff like this. Same with housing, provide budget accommodations in low cost areas and you'll be accused of creating ghettos and modern day internment camps. So we spend much more to subsidize…

Right. Or you give people the capacity to make their own choices (and make sure the market can function as properly, which is non-trivial).

Any kind of goods/services delivery removes people's capacity to make their own choices.

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