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As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

nytimes.com

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Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#91

Post by wlesieutre »

huebnerob wrote: post #68
antoncohen wrote: post #32

Why is this Google's fault? I walk through The East Cut nearly every day, and I admit I was confused by the rebranding. But it wasn't done by Google. There are people cleaning the sidewalks in East Cut shirts, banners that say East Cut, real estate companies that call it East Cut. It would be a little weird if Google ignored the name. Yes, "The East Cut" is a strange name. But that area as never part of South Beach (…

Indeed, the article complains about names 'just being made up' but fails to provide any evidence of that actually happening. Instead, all the other odd names they call out actually originated somewhere in the community, albeit perhaps from esoteric sources. What's more, NYT seems to willfully ignore that place names change and evolve constantly through natural social processes just like these. That Google is indexing…

>Indeed, the article complains about names 'just being made up'

Unlike all those other placenames like "South of Market" which were decreed by god when he created San Fransisco :P

What they're really getting at is that it was made up by the wrong people. Like anything else that once happened organically among groups of people, you can now wrangle up an advertising budget and push it along.

My neighborhood has a "real" neighborhood name and a silly sub-neighborhood name that gets brought up once a year for a block party. If real estate developers thought the name was valuable, I bet it would mysteriously become a lot more popular.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#92

Post by lobotryas »

paidleaf wrote: post #35
sonnyblarney wrote: post #3

Because of the power of mind share, Google has the power to control borders. The border between Israel and the West Bank is an odd one. 'Both sides' have their view of it. But if 7 Billion people on planet earth grow up seeing one version of the border, it's what they will come to believe as 'true' and effectively support - particularly those in modern nations that might have influence. China is aware of this and the…

> China is aware of this and they control any maps their citizens will ever see. Everyone is aware of it. Maps have always been political. Maps and borders are political creations. Why is it that whenever a controversial topic comes up, people always bring up china? Every HN thread that has a controversial topic, someone always sneaks in a reference to china? > "Of course all that ocean between Philippines and Vietna…

>people always bring up China

Because China's often top of mind due to being in the news. Also, because China does many things (some good, many horrible) that suit them and not the West or Western principles. I'm curious to see why this bothers you and I hope you avoid falling into the "whattaboutism" trap.

Regarding parent comment: China's aggressive military base push in SCS and other waters is very worrying.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#93

Post by abrahamepton »

jrockway wrote: post #76

I feel like the issue here is that there simply isn't any data that definitively maps out where neighborhoods are. I have never been certain where neighborhood boundaries are in any city I've lived in. I remember when I lived in Chicago I looked around for an official source and found one from the city... except the districts had no resemblance to what people were calling the neighborhoods. Meanwhile, real estate typ…

For Chicago, specifically, the closest official equivalent is the 77 community areas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago), which definitely don't align with how residents see neighborhood boundaries. That's in part because the CAs were created decades ago by the U of C, and aren't really allowed to change so that longitudinal comparisons can be made using them.

Just speaks to how tricky the question really is. Cities have legally-defined boundaries for very good reasons while neighborhoods just...don't, so what is a mapmaker supposed to do?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#94

Post by reaperducer »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #83
reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? If people are using the latter to determine where to live, doesn't that define a neighborhood?

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up?

In this case, the city designations are important because each year the city divides a pot of money that goes to supplemental infrastructure improvements in each neighborhood.

Because it's supplemental money, it is a fixed amount for each neighborhood. If a neighborhood's boundaries increase, then money available for improvements in that neighborhood is stretched thinner. If a neighborhood's boundaries shrink, then more money is available for improvements per block.

This is why boundaries matter, and why they are codified.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#95

Post by askafriend »

jrockway wrote: post #76

I feel like the issue here is that there simply isn't any data that definitively maps out where neighborhoods are. I have never been certain where neighborhood boundaries are in any city I've lived in. I remember when I lived in Chicago I looked around for an official source and found one from the city... except the districts had no resemblance to what people were calling the neighborhoods. Meanwhile, real estate typ…

Nextdoor.com maps out most neighborhood boundaries with some inputs from users. The boundaries are also allowed to “evolve” as time goes on and areas change.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#96

Post by abrahamepton »

reaperducer wrote: post #87
bumholio wrote: post #14

> named his new publishing start-up Fishkorn this year after seeing the name on Google Maps. “It rolls off the tongue,” he said And there you have it, the exact same process that gave rise to all toponyms. It's debatable if Google has a fault for unwittingly altering a random walk. Your older Fiskhorn is no more 'right' than my new Fishkorn, and in many ways worse. If consensus forms, by whatever means, that's what's…

Your older Fiskhorn is no more 'right' than my new Fishkorn I'm not so sure. "Fiskhorn" was probably named after a person or family. Like The Bronx in New York. Changing it to "Fishkorn" erodes the neighborhood's history. If you've lived most of your life in newer states, you may be used to made up place names. But in older cities/towns/states, place names have meaning. Often historic meanings. Knowing a little bit a…

Yeah but those "historic meanings" change all the time, and names shift because what's easy to pronounce wins over what's "correct". This is a digital equivalent of a very, very, very old process utterly intrinsic to human civilization.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#97

Post by singlow »

concam wrote: post #82
tyu100 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, another article from the Times complaining that they don't get to make up neighbourhood names anymore ("newspapers used to disseminate new names") but Google does.

Can you point me to the other articles where the NYT complains that they don't get to make up neighborhood names anymore but Google does?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/opinion/new-york-neighbor...

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/procro-sobro-fid...

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#98

Post by flomo »

jrockway wrote: post #76

I feel like the issue here is that there simply isn't any data that definitively maps out where neighborhoods are. I have never been certain where neighborhood boundaries are in any city I've lived in. I remember when I lived in Chicago I looked around for an official source and found one from the city... except the districts had no resemblance to what people were calling the neighborhoods. Meanwhile, real estate typ…

In this case, there are official boundaries and they actually matter quite a bit for local politics. "East Cut" is a local neighborhood association which rebranded itself so it could expand its territory.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#100

Post by ErikAugust »

reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

"I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical."

---

"Currently the predominant business model for commercial search engines is advertising... We expect that commercial search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the consumers..." - Sergey Brin and Larry Page, 1998

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

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