As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume • Hacker News Board

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#81

Post by duxup » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:29 PM UTC

larkeith wrote: post #50

antoncohen wrote: post #32

Why is this Google's fault? I walk through The East Cut nearly every day, and I admit I was confused by the rebranding. But it wasn't done by Google. There are people cleaning the sidewalks in East Cut shirts, banners that say East Cut, real estate companies that call it East Cut. It would be a little weird if Google ignored the name. Yes, "The East Cut" is a strange name. But that area as never part of South Beach (…

It's somewhat problematic when Google starts to become an arbitrator of real-world boundaries, as there is functionally no oversight or recourse for those affected. Google was not appointed by the residents, is not incentivized to avoid damaging changes, and is functionally impossible to hold responsible - they're an opaque monolith to anyone who tries to effect change or revert their decisions, and their black box-e…

You can't operate a map site and not be:

> become an arbitrator of real-world boundaries, as there is functionally no oversight or recourse for those affected.

If you do what people ask, you're being the arbiter.

If you do what people don't ask, you're still being the arbiter.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#82

Post by concam » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

tyu100 wrote: post #72

huebnerob wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the article complains about names 'just being made up' but fails to provide any evidence of that actually happening. Instead, all the other odd names they call out actually originated somewhere in the community, albeit perhaps from esoteric sources. What's more, NYT seems to willfully ignore that place names change and evolve constantly through natural social processes just like these. That Google is indexing…

Yes, another article from the Times complaining that they don't get to make up neighbourhood names anymore ("newspapers used to disseminate new names") but Google does.

Can you point me to the other articles where the NYT complains that they don't get to make up neighborhood names anymore but Google does?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#83

Post by daveFNbuck » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? If people are using the latter to determine where to live, doesn't that define a neighborhood?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#84

Post by lucb1e » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #18

Most maps are deliberately inaccurate in subtle ways. You can't copyright facts, so cartographers use fictional places and deliberate errors to protect their work. If these features appear on another map, then it's reasonable to assume that they were plagiarised. Historically, cartographers have often created settlements or roads where none actually exist; inventing fictional names for districts or mis-spelling some…

There may be very small and subtle things added, omitted or changed, but it's not the case that "most maps" are completely inaccurate in subtle ways for this reason. Trap streets are just that: single streets, usually tiny ones, that are either completely fictitious or a mislabeled driveway or something. Not whole neighbourhoods being made up.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#85

Post by monadgonad » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

teh_klev wrote: post #47

paidleaf wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is aware of this and they control any maps their citizens will ever see. Everyone is aware of it. Maps have always been political. Maps and borders are political creations. Why is it that whenever a controversial topic comes up, people always bring up china? Every HN thread that has a controversial topic, someone always sneaks in a reference to china? > "Of course all that ocean between Philippines and Vietna…

> The issue with maps has always existed. As an amusing aside, and whilst not wishing to introduce flammable politics into this discussion, there's a funny thing that goes on whenever the topic of the Scottish Independence debate arises in the media or on social media. It usually concerns the Scottish border between Scotland and England and usually heads along the lines of "rebuilding Hadrian's Wall" to keep us pesky…

> Little do they realise (or they do and are playing along with the usual lazy stereotypes and tropes about Scotland)

Why is it either of those? I think you're willfully taking "rebuild Hadrian's Wall" to have an extremely literal meaning that isn't intended by anyone saying it. Clearly they mean "build a wall between Scotland and rUK", not "follow the exact line of a 2000-year-old wall".

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#86

Post by bkor » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #83

reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? If people are using the latter to determine where to live, doesn't that define a neighborhood?

City council determines the areas within a city; it is NOT made up. Some areas are much more popular than others. Leaving this to random people is absurd. The areas don't suddenly change.

Anyway, this is how it is like in The Netherlands.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#87

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 3:53 PM UTC

bumholio wrote: post #14

> named his new publishing start-up Fishkorn this year after seeing the name on Google Maps. “It rolls off the tongue,” he said And there you have it, the exact same process that gave rise to all toponyms. It's debatable if Google has a fault for unwittingly altering a random walk. Your older Fiskhorn is no more 'right' than my new Fishkorn, and in many ways worse. If consensus forms, by whatever means, that's what's…

Your older Fiskhorn is no more 'right' than my new Fishkorn

I'm not so sure.

"Fiskhorn" was probably named after a person or family. Like The Bronx in New York.

Changing it to "Fishkorn" erodes the neighborhood's history.

If you've lived most of your life in newer states, you may be used to made up place names. But in older cities/towns/states, place names have meaning. Often historic meanings. Knowing a little bit about the local history, you can read a story just by looking at a map.

Changing historic place names doesn't make the new names "right" just because the person who made the change thinks it's so.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#88

Post by daveFNbuck » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

bkor wrote: post #86

daveFNbuck wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? If people are using the latter to determine where to live, doesn't that define a neighborhood?

City council determines the areas within a city; it is NOT made up. Some areas are much more popular than others. Leaving this to random people is absurd. The areas don't suddenly change. Anyway, this is how it is like in The Netherlands.

So the maps made by the city council are superior because they're a better reflection of how popular an area is?

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#89

Post by extralego » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #83

reaperducer wrote: post #73

I deal with this with one of the web sites I maintain. I think, as noted in the article, that it seems Google sometimes uses names from advertisements as if they are canonical. In my case, the city in question puts out a very specific, very legally defined map of each neighborhood, and has for more than a century. But real estate agents make up names for the neighborhoods, or fudge the boundaries to improve selling p…

What makes the maps that the city makes up better than the ones that the real estate agents make up? If people are using the latter to determine where to live, doesn't that define a neighborhood?

No. It defines advertising.

Neighborhoods imply far more than geography; things like culture, traditions, cooperation, people define a neighborhood. This is, among other things, the contents of trust. The idea of a foundation on which to make a happy life amongst they neighbors can involve many different things, so it’s vague, but the most important part is that the participants themselves are who develops the neighborhood; not capitalists trying to profit from it.

Gentrification is a prime example of where this becomes a cruel and unusual form of manipulation, but it’s not the only one.

What Google is doing should absolutely be considered a crime.

Re: As Google Maps Renames Neighborhoods, Residents Fume

#90

Post by extralego » Thu, Aug 02, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #88

bkor wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City council determines the areas within a city; it is NOT made up. Some areas are much more popular than others. Leaving this to random people is absurd. The areas don't suddenly change. Anyway, this is how it is like in The Netherlands.

So the maps made by the city council are superior because they're a better reflection of how popular an area is?

No. Because they are a result of democracy.