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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#381

Post by throwaway2048 »

quotemstr wrote: post #265

The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…

Saying somebody is a hypocrite isn't an argument against what they are saying.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#382

Post by sdkaufman »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #121

There are lots of tech companies active in countries like China, Russia, Iran, and other countries with varying ideas about privacy, human rights, etc. This generally requires complying with local legislation, whether you agree with that or not. Singling out Google for not opting to exclude a fifth of the population of this planet from their products is a bit overkill. I'd rather they offer choice to the Chinese peop…

> I'd rather they offer choice to the Chinese people on their terms than opting to not be in China at all.

Very much agreed. And I'd add that by offering that choice they're making Chinese internet users strictly better off, rather than worse off. By operating in China, Google isn't making any _less_ information available to Chinese internet users, since Baidu, Bing etc are already censored anyway. If anything, it will likely be a net win in terms of access to information and user experience as we'd finally see some meaningful competition to Baidu.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#383

Post by throwaway2048 »

cirenehc wrote: post #217
influx wrote: post #150

Google employees practically rioted when they found out their employer was trying to get a contract with the American Government, but will just cash their RSUs when they help the Chinese government censor its citizens. Sad.

The Chinese government is going to censor its citizens regardless though.

The nazis were going to gas jews regardless, why not make a buck off it?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#384

Post by ehsankia »

mahranch wrote: post #198
bad_user wrote: post #133

There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…

> pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts They didn't pull their search engine out of China because of censorship requests, they pulled their search engine because the government kept trying to hack them and steal their source code, which they eventually did. So Google up and left. Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303493904575167... They like to cite censorship a…

I honestly don't understand why censorship is relevant. It's not like Google is going to change how China works, nor should it be in charge of that. Google being there or not has zero impact on how China treats its people, but at least some users may get access to services they find useful. Limited is better than nothing for many, especially Android users.

What DOES matter is Chinese government accessing data Google collects on users. If China takes over the data like with iCloud [0], then that actually puts user's life in danger. My understanding is that they left back then because they couldn't protect users, but they are back because they believe their security is better now.

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/17/apples-icloud-user-data-in...

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#385

Post by ehsankia »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #290
quotemstr wrote: post #265

The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…

I think there is an important distinction to be made. Censorship that is meant to block all criticism of the current rulers to keep them in power forever is unlike all other kinds of censorship because it is self-referential and self-reinforcing. If a government censors, say, sites that distribute pirated movies or sites that glamorise suicide, I can still protest against that ban or campaign to get a different gover…

Any censorship is almost be definition self-reinforcing. If you censor something, there's less of it and the ideas that aren't censored proliferate more, getting stronger.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#386

Post by ehsankia »

pytyper2 wrote: post #75
macspoofing wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. This exactly. I would even make a stronger case. It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power. This is a failure of US and EU governments. They should pressure China to liberalize their government and provide a level economic playing field (it is insane what China gets away wit…

Do you remember the "Don't Be Evil" campaign? Google literally rose to prominence with this as their slogan. I would expect a company whose slogan is "Don't Be Evil" to completely shun a country who wants censored search.

Following local laws does not imply you approve of it. That's like saying, if your company has business in a country that doesn't allow same-sex marriage, you as a company are against same-sex marriage too.

They don't make the law, neither should they. It's not Google's job to decide how China runs its country. And offering legitimate users legitimate service is neither immoral nor greedy.

The majority of Chinese people would much rather have a limited set of services than no services at all. They already do live with dozens of censored search engines, so one more makes no difference to them. Google isn't making their life any worse, but rather providing them services they didn't have before. How is that "evil"?

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#387

Post by ehsankia »

mocae wrote: post #41
macspoofing wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. This exactly. I would even make a stronger case. It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power. This is a failure of US and EU governments. They should pressure China to liberalize their government and provide a level economic playing field (it is insane what China gets away wit…

You make it look like google would starve without China. Like they have to go there and participate. Shifting the blame for your lack of ethics onto some government is ridiculous in this context. My god...where is your shame?

And people in this thread make it sound that without Google, China would be this free and uncensored country. The reality is that all search engines are already censored, so one more has little impact. Google's job isn't to decide how China works, it's to provide value to users, and by almost all definitions, this move will provide a non-negative impact.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#388

Post by ehsankia »

sdkaufman wrote: post #378
mywacaday wrote: post #20

Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…

Exactly - Microsoft (Bing, Office 365, Hotmail, OneDrive etc) has been operating in China forever, and Bing cooperates with state censorship just as you'd expect. But the minute Google does the same thing, everyone loses their minds. Is this because of expectations (i.e. no one expected MS to hold the moral high ground, but Google was famous for its "Do no evil" mantra)? In which case, well, maybe Google's branding b…

Don't forget Apple, and they do far worse:

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/17/apples-icloud-user-data-in...

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#389

Post by ehsankia »

bsamuels wrote: post #258
cirenehc wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese government is going to censor its citizens regardless though.

The US government will just give the AI contract to Raytheon/Northrop instead of Google. What's your point?

The difference is that providing a censored service is better than no service. Android for example is a much more limited experience in China. Do you honestly not think a Chinese citizen would prefer having a limited Play Store than none at all? Chinese people don't go around searching about Tiananmen Square every day, and they would much rather have access to all the cat videos on Youtube than none at all.

Whereas the Maven project, there wasn't really a user benefiting.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#390

Post by ehsankia »

hahahaha23 wrote: post #216
skc wrote: post #114

Why should Apple be the only ones making money hand over fist from China (and be lauded for their eye popping revenues every quarter)

Making phones is different from helping censorship. Although admittedly, their phone operation is also controversial by letting works work extensively.

Yeah, why censor when you can collect all your users' data and give it straight to the government.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/17/apples-icloud-user-data-in...

Do you honestly think that's less bad than blocking a few websites that are already blocked and can be bypassed by VPN?

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