Small reminder that companies must submit all source code for review if they do business in China
> companies must submit all source code for review if they do government contracts in China
FTFY
Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
371–380 of 436 posts
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hypothesis: the rise of the right to be forgotten in Europe served as a stepping stone. Free speech absolutists within the company could not be defeated in one step, but could be defeated in two steps. I am not saying that right to be forgotten is halfway through from free-speech absolutism to full-blown state control of information, but come on. If you ever jumped from a high place, you know that every foot of heigh…
Relating this to RTBF is interesting, but your thinking is muddled. Europe created RTBF, not Google. So the hypothesis that RTBF is part of a Google corporate plan to "defeat" internal activists is baseless. It just makes no sense on the face of it.
What I meant was: EU created RTBF, Google went "well, we must comply with local laws, and we can't get out of Europe". From there, it's a smaller leap to comply with worse local laws.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#373The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that all restrictions of free speech are basically equivalent. You claim that these things are "exactly" the same: moderating harassment on a private website versus government-enforced suppression of evidence of a massacre. You conclude that to be for one but not the other is to be hypocritical. I think that's a very reductionist way of looking at some complex issues.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you seriously arguing that folks against maven were PRC shills?
You actually don't believe there is a sizable group of PRC shills/ Chinese nationalists currently working at google?
Why would I? Can you point me to evidence one would use to form that opinion?
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Korean War ended up benefitting South Korea in the sense that they didn’t up like North Korea. The free trade agreements have largely been responsible for large numbers of the world's population improving their living standard. There are other examples of intervention being good. Of course there are lots of examples of intervention being bad. There is nothing special about Western intervention vs. intervention by…
>The Korean War ended up benefitting South Korea in the sense that they didn’t up like North Korea This is an incorrect understanding of Korean history. US anti-communist policy played no small part in creating North Korea in the first place. In the postwar period, US support for the right-wing dictator Syngman Rhee, who murdered tens of thousands of Korean citizens he suspected were his political opponents, empowere…
I think it is undeniable that Sung would, with Chinese and Soviet help, would have revolted against anyone who was in power at the time. Regardless of US actions. (The Sino-Soviet split occurred later.) Without US backing Sung would have won and Korea would be much worse off now. At least as I see things.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a straw man which conflates Google with the regulations it is proposing to follow. Google wants to do business in China; and it does so by obeying Chinese regulations. It obeys the law. End of story. If you want to change it, lobby the PRC.
No it doesn't. The regulations in China are immoral. Obeying immoral laws is also immoral. (If the law says 'gas the [ethnic group]' it is still wrong to do it). If Google must follow immoral laws to operate in China, they should not operate in China. I don't have any pull with the PRC but I can boycott Google.
> The regulations in China are immoral. Obeying immoral laws is also immoral.
The real world isn't black & white like that. By operating in China, Google isn't making _less_ information available to the average Chinese internet user, since Baidu, Bing etc are already censored anyway. If anything, it will likely be a net win in terms of access to information and user experience as we'd finally see some meaningful competition to Baidu.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#377The hypocrisy of western activist types on this issue is astounding. One week, they demand that tech companies across the US censor what they find "harmful", but the next week, they condemn the Chinese for doing exactly the same thing for content they find "harmful". Either you're in favor of free speech or you're just partial about which content you want to censor. The activist crowd in the west lost all moral stand…
I think there are two things to say. The first is that you aren’t comparing like for like. In the Chinese case, the Chinese government gets to choose what is censored and any search engine has to censor the same things, whereas in the US it would presumably be Google that gets to decide what to censor and so someone could conceivably go to another search engine to avoid it. It’s also worth noting that even if search…
> In the Chinese case, the Chinese government gets to choose what is censored and any search engine has to censor the same things, whereas in the US it would presumably be Google that gets to decide what to censor and so someone could conceivably go to another search engine to avoid it.
I don't think that's true.
Google (and any other search engine) is compelled by US law to take down content that violates copyright. In China, Google will be compelled by Chinese law to take down content that e.g. criticize the government. See the similarities?
Sure, you could argue that taking down copyright infringing content is ultimately good for society, while taking down content critical of the government is bad for society, and yes I am of that opinion myself.
But this is a subjective moral judgement, and not a universal truth. And just like there are people in the US who morally object to copyright enforcement, you will find people in China who do _not_ morally object to censorship, at all.
In any case, it's not like Google is making any _less_ information available to Chinese internet users by operating in China. Whatever will be censored was already inaccessible to Chinese internet users, because Baidu, Bing and so on are already applying the same censorship anyway.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#378Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. If we have a problem with how their government works policy should be applied that prevents/manages how businesses subject to our laws operate abroad. The majority of people don't really care how corporations behave. If they did Google search/gmail/maps would not be so popular. They have the right price point(0$) fo…
Exactly - Microsoft (Bing, Office 365, Hotmail, OneDrive etc) has been operating in China forever, and Bing cooperates with state censorship just as you'd expect. But the minute Google does the same thing, everyone loses their minds.
Is this because of expectations (i.e. no one expected MS to hold the moral high ground, but Google was famous for its "Do no evil" mantra)? In which case, well, maybe Google's branding backfired in this case :-/
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#379There might be many tech companies in China, no doubt, including big names, and companies should comply with local regulations if they want to do business, however the fact that Google pulled their search engine out of China, defying their censorship attempts, is one big reason for why I respected Google, in spite of my reservations for them. So let me tell you what I think as an EU citizen that's actively concerned…
This logic seems rather strange to me.
If you're unhappy with Google's privacy practices, by all means boycott Google services and cheer for the EU fines. But why would you judge Google's privacy practices any differently depending on whether or not they cooperate with Chinese censorship?
e.g. Why should Google get a free pass for any user privacy malpractices even if they promote freedom of speech on the side?
Conversely, why should Google be penalized more for any user privacy malpractices if they _didn't_ promote freedom of speech on the side?
It's not like a company can be simply judged as "good" or "bad" on a single dimension.
Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
At a very basic level, looking away enables the situations and power structures to come about which then are used to excuse that looking away. Any individual's act of looking away, is completely within the power of that individual. You can't save your life anyway, nobody can, but only you can kill your soul. You can that "histrionics", I call it a shorthand. Speaking of shorthands, > IMO, there were historical proces…
> These "historical processes" are 100% made up of the acts and failures to act of individuals. That's obviously false. Trivial example: a volcanic eruption or some other natural catastrophe can change the course of a country's history. You can look at Mount Vesuvius all you want, it won't stop it from erupting. Modern democracies are in fact the exact opposite of what you are describing. They are not made up of coun…
> Politicians ignore most people's opinions, and turn their backs on their own electoral promises once in power.
That always happens to a degree, of course, but I find, and IIRC research shows, that politicians generally follow the policies they proclaimed during their campaigns. Certainly I am not surprised by much done by Obama, Trump, May, Merkel, Abe, etc. And those disliked by the public, reflected by low polling, are voted out of office.
Also, we can judge by the enormous sums invested by all sides in persuading and manipulating public opinion that public opinion is highly influential. Finally, democracies have limited government and the rule of law; politicians cannot limit human rights and are subject to the law.