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The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

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Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#241

Post by candiodari »

landryraccoon wrote: post #230
candiodari wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So if you want your pensions to be secured, the benefits cannot be guaranteed by faith in future governments! It's funny how you see this as a positive ? If people have this attitude, of course the result will be mercantilism, or worse : the hoarding of jobs/companies/markets and the only way to get into a specific jobs is to do whatever "the guild" wants, which I guarantee will include paying pensions. And if you…

If you are a socialist, you ignored my most important argument : > If the median income in a nation is $40K, but the median pension given by the state exceeds that income, then who is suffering unfairly if the pension is reduced to be more in line with what the average worker earns? If government pensions pay out more at retirement than the median worker makes while working, would you agree that under socialism this…

> If government pensions pay out more at retirement than the median worker makes while working, would you agree that under socialism this would be considered unfair to the worker, and overly exploitative for the pensioner?

No, because, firstly, this isn't true. The government simply has started to pay less. From any individual's perspective, I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working. If you have heard differently, I assure you that's propaganda.

Secondly, I would simply say that current government employees have the right to be paid the same as their predecessors. Lowering pensions ? No way I'd agree to that as a socialist. No way in hell. But you should raise the conditions for government employees.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#242

Post by agumonkey »

sp332 wrote: post #60
agumonkey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is ayn rand a real influence ? i've seen one interview of her and I can't read her name without being filled with negative emotions. such a free-market fanatic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand#Political_influence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged#Influence_and_l... Edit: She did flee a terrible situation in Russia, which I think probably explains (but does not excuse) her positions on socialism vs. capitalism.

coming from russia I understand her 'love' for free market

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#243

Post by landryraccoon »

candiodari wrote: post #241
landryraccoon wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a socialist, you ignored my most important argument : > If the median income in a nation is $40K, but the median pension given by the state exceeds that income, then who is suffering unfairly if the pension is reduced to be more in line with what the average worker earns? If government pensions pay out more at retirement than the median worker makes while working, would you agree that under socialism this…

> If government pensions pay out more at retirement than the median worker makes while working, would you agree that under socialism this would be considered unfair to the worker, and overly exploitative for the pensioner? No, because, firstly, this isn't true. The government simply has started to pay less. From any individual's perspective, I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working.…

> I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working. If you have heard differently, I assure you that's propaganda.

They earn more than the average worker overall. In California the average government pensioner earns 26% more than the average non retired, currently working worker.

Source:

https://californiapolicycenter.org/what-is-the-average-pensi...

That's too much. As a socialist, I would find it clearly exploitative that a non worker is making more than an active worker. That's completely unjustifiable under socialism.

The point of a pension is to provide an income so a retiree doesn't live in poverty. Paying a pension that exceeds that of a younger worker who is actively working full time completely goes against that.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#244

Post by jefurii »

landryraccoon wrote: post #159
chris_mc wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why in the ever loving fuck are you blaming the _workers_ for this shortsightedness instead of the government organizations who are about to fuck those people over when they're 70? Maybe the administrators of the pension accounts and financial planners for these organizations should have done better by the people who are busting their (collective) asses to provide services for you, the taxpayer?

> Why in the ever loving fuck are you blaming the _workers_ for this shortsightedness instead of the government organizations who are about to fuck those people over when they're 70? Well, we are the ones paying those people's pensions, in the form of taxes, so we're the ones fucking ourselves over if they got too sweet of a deal right? I am personally not going to get 50-100% of my maximum salary as guaranteed compe…

> Well, we are the ones paying those people's pensions,

My dad (retired) was a career public employee. He paid into his pension every month of his entire career. He earned every damn penny he's getting right now.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#245

Post by rapjr9 »

How are AI and automation going to affect pensions? If many jobs become automated who contributes to the pension funds and Social Security to support the previous generations? All the discussion I see here seems to assume the future is like today. Those lists of which jobs are most likely to be automated soonest may also be lists of which pensions will not be funded in the future.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#247

Post by candiodari »

landryraccoon wrote: post #243
candiodari wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If government pensions pay out more at retirement than the median worker makes while working, would you agree that under socialism this would be considered unfair to the worker, and overly exploitative for the pensioner? No, because, firstly, this isn't true. The government simply has started to pay less. From any individual's perspective, I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working.…

> I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working. If you have heard differently, I assure you that's propaganda. They earn more than the average worker overall. In California the average government pensioner earns 26% more than the average non retired, currently working worker. Source: https://californiapolicycenter.org/what-is-the-average-pensi... That's too much. As a socialist, I would…

> That's too much. As a socialist, I would find it clearly exploitative that a non worker is making more than an active worker. That's completely unjustifiable under socialism.

I don't understand where this is coming from. Personally, I am a socialist and I think it's too little.

If I look at it from a capitalist's perspective, I ... also think it's too little.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#248

Post by zzleeper »

jefurii wrote: post #244
landryraccoon wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why in the ever loving fuck are you blaming the _workers_ for this shortsightedness instead of the government organizations who are about to fuck those people over when they're 70? Well, we are the ones paying those people's pensions, in the form of taxes, so we're the ones fucking ourselves over if they got too sweet of a deal right? I am personally not going to get 50-100% of my maximum salary as guaranteed compe…

> Well, we are the ones paying those people's pensions, My dad (retired) was a career public employee. He paid into his pension every month of his entire career. He earned every damn penny he's getting right now.

Statistically speaking, he didn't. What he paid was way lower than the expected vsñue of what he'll get. That's the entire idea of a pyramid pension scheme.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#249

Post by landryraccoon »

candiodari wrote: post #247
landryraccoon wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assure you they don't earn more in retirement than when they were working. If you have heard differently, I assure you that's propaganda. They earn more than the average worker overall. In California the average government pensioner earns 26% more than the average non retired, currently working worker. Source: https://californiapolicycenter.org/what-is-the-average-pensi... That's too much. As a socialist, I would…

> That's too much. As a socialist, I would find it clearly exploitative that a non worker is making more than an active worker. That's completely unjustifiable under socialism. I don't understand where this is coming from. Personally, I am a socialist and I think it's too little. If I look at it from a capitalist's perspective, I ... also think it's too little.

> Personally, I am a socialist and I think it's too little.

I'm sorry, just to be clear, are you saying that as a socialist, you think a young worker who is actively working and only making $40K a year should pay more to support someone who is making $50K a year but isn't working at all, because $50K is too little?

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#250

Post by candiodari »

landryraccoon wrote: post #249
candiodari wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's too much. As a socialist, I would find it clearly exploitative that a non worker is making more than an active worker. That's completely unjustifiable under socialism. I don't understand where this is coming from. Personally, I am a socialist and I think it's too little. If I look at it from a capitalist's perspective, I ... also think it's too little.

> Personally, I am a socialist and I think it's too little. I'm sorry, just to be clear, are you saying that as a socialist, you think a young worker who is actively working and only making $40K a year should pay more to support someone who is making $50K a year but isn't working at all, because $50K is too little?

I think they should both be paid more. In case you don't remember, socialism is about the state just taking control of the means of production, so where the money comes from is quite obvious.
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