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Django 2.1 released

docs.djangoproject.com

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Re: Django 2.1 released

#71

Post by blattimwind »

djsumdog wrote: post #57
zimablue wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter point, I tried to use Django for a data-visualisation project and ran into some problems. Everything is built on models, which are kind of activerecord pattern. Django has an inbuilt (and inferior) version of sqlalchemy, so that when you want to push sql past a certain point (define queries more complex than the api) you're pretty much stuck. Now you have codebase with two different database libraries in…

I mean that's a general problem with ALL ORMs. I've been on Django projects where we had to drop down and pass raw SQL statements. On my current project we don't use an ORM; just SQL statements and we create classes to match the result set and map into them.

Disagree. It's mostly a question of whether the ORM was designed as a "least-common denominator of common operations supported by some RDBMSs" (which is clearly the case for the Django ORM) or as an abstraction of SQL concepts (i.e. a form of relational algebra). The former category generally fares poorly with complex queries or structures; the latter exceeds at them.

Re: Django 2.1 released

#72

Post by collinmanderson »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #47
fredley wrote: post #7

I've been working with Django for almost my whole career, since 1.1. It's a joy to use, and blows any other web framework I've used out of the water when it comes to actually just building stuff. Django is a fantastic boring[1] tool, and seeing boring updates like this is great. 1: http://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology

My roommate in College built a site with 0.96 of Django. It’s still running. I think it’s one of if not the longest running commercial Django websites.

I maintain a Django ecommerce site that's been running constantly since July 12, 2007 (at launch it was running against r4984, basically 0.96). Just upgraded it to 2.1 today.

Re: Django 2.1 released

#73

Post by blumomo »

ergo14 wrote: post #18
fredley wrote: post #7

I've been working with Django for almost my whole career, since 1.1. It's a joy to use, and blows any other web framework I've used out of the water when it comes to actually just building stuff. Django is a fantastic boring[1] tool, and seeing boring updates like this is great. 1: http://mcfunley.com/choose-boring-technology

It is worth noting that Pyramid Web Framework is also awesome to use. I see it as a middle ground between Django and Flask. The scaffolds make some design decisions for project and you can pick from what you like the most. Pyramid allows for extensible applications and never gets in your way. The most critical Python infrastructure (PyPi) is now built with it, if you haven't tried it give it a shot. It is one of most…

I'm a very happy ist of Pyramid. Using it professionally for various larger applications as well as for pet projects.

It's very well thought through. We're providing a GraphQL and integrating it was a breeze.

Re: Django 2.1 released

#74

Post by Serow225 »

blattimwind wrote: post #71
djsumdog wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that's a general problem with ALL ORMs. I've been on Django projects where we had to drop down and pass raw SQL statements. On my current project we don't use an ORM; just SQL statements and we create classes to match the result set and map into them.

Disagree. It's mostly a question of whether the ORM was designed as a "least-common denominator of common operations supported by some RDBMSs" (which is clearly the case for the Django ORM) or as an abstraction of SQL concepts (i.e. a form of relational algebra). The former category generally fares poorly with complex queries or structures; the latter exceeds at them.

What are some good examples of the latter type of ORM? Thanks

Re: Django 2.1 released

#75

Post by ggregoire »

danpalmer wrote: post #62
txcwpalpha wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people going around saying that Django is obsolete? I've seen a lot of people argue against using Django in favor of RoR or Flask, but that's usually based on personal preference. I've never seen anyone say that it's "obsolete".

I’ve had a few frontend engineering candidates quiz me as to why our backend is written in Python and not JavaScript, and implying that Python is “legacy”. This is not true, but there are developers who think that.

I'm not a fan of Python but the language is still in the top 5 with C#, Java, PHP and Ruby. It's very easy to get a job as a Python dev. People saying that Python is “legacy” have obviously no idea what they're talking about. They probably think C#, Java, PHP and Ruby are “legacy” too. :)

Re: Django 2.1 released

#76

Post by blattimwind »

Serow225 wrote: post #74
blattimwind wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It's mostly a question of whether the ORM was designed as a "least-common denominator of common operations supported by some RDBMSs" (which is clearly the case for the Django ORM) or as an abstraction of SQL concepts (i.e. a form of relational algebra). The former category generally fares poorly with complex queries or structures; the latter exceeds at them.

What are some good examples of the latter type of ORM? Thanks

sqlalchemy

Re: Django 2.1 released

#77

Post by cdnsteve »

jtchang wrote: post #44

For anyone thinking about picking up Django and is worried about the framework being obsolete I encourage you to take a look. Django is fantastic. I've worked with it for a number of years now and it can really help in the early stages of prototyping. Things I especially like about Django: * The built in admin letting you edit and view objects easily. * Being able to use it without using the views. Add django rest fr…

Also very notable benefits:

* Ease of upgrading between versions. This is especially critical and important if you have long lived projects.

* Excellent documentation

* Healthy community, contributors and project is run really smoothly by the team

* Project is a foundation vs single point of failure ,aka main dev loses interest, comparative to other frameworks

Re: Django 2.1 released

#78

Post by andybak »

borplk wrote: post #61
jtchang wrote: post #44

For anyone thinking about picking up Django and is worried about the framework being obsolete I encourage you to take a look. Django is fantastic. I've worked with it for a number of years now and it can really help in the early stages of prototyping. Things I especially like about Django: * The built in admin letting you edit and view objects easily. * Being able to use it without using the views. Add django rest fr…

A huge reason some people consider frameworks like Django obsolete is because they are focused on an older web paradigm of constructing elaborate html pages on the server side and pushing it out and letting some basic extra js stuff augment it. That's what lead to things like server side HTML form definition and form handling code. After the emergence of things like React, Angular, etc those "html templating" facilit…

> an older web paradigm of constructing elaborate html pages on the server side and pushing it out and letting some basic extra js stuff augment it.

Sounds like an awesome idea.

> That's what lead to things like server side HTML form definition and form handling code.

You make these sound like bad things.

> those types of things conflict and overlap with things like React

So why presume the thing to abandon isn't React for many use cases?

> The backend is turning more into a data/API/GraphQL service than "get html" service that was popular when these frameworks emerged.

Which is fine if you're building a complex web app but stop encouraging people to build content sites this way. It's a terrible idea and they usually have deep UX flaws due to incomplete attempts to rebuild functionality that you get for free if you stop reinventing the wheel.

50% of the sites I visit seem to break some subtle aspect of bookmarking, navigation, caching, reloading or something else that they have no business messing with.

Re: Django 2.1 released

#79

Post by rglullis »

borplk wrote: post #61
jtchang wrote: post #44

For anyone thinking about picking up Django and is worried about the framework being obsolete I encourage you to take a look. Django is fantastic. I've worked with it for a number of years now and it can really help in the early stages of prototyping. Things I especially like about Django: * The built in admin letting you edit and view objects easily. * Being able to use it without using the views. Add django rest fr…

A huge reason some people consider frameworks like Django obsolete is because they are focused on an older web paradigm of constructing elaborate html pages on the server side and pushing it out and letting some basic extra js stuff augment it. That's what lead to things like server side HTML form definition and form handling code. After the emergence of things like React, Angular, etc those "html templating" facilit…

Not true. django-rest-framework is so well adopted and widespread and it lets you very quickly put together a REST service. If you just want to talk json/xml/whatever with your client, it is easy. But the really cool thing about DRF is how it simply generalizes some of the concepts that already existed in in Django. If you started in Django and learned about Form and ModelForm, you can easily pick up DRF Serializers and ModelSerializers to get input validation.

With django channels, you can also very easily break away from wsgi and have real time services, web sockets, all talking with your Django code.

There is no "focus on older web paradigms". Django may have been slower to get things that other shiny JS frameworks already have, but this is only because Django had already successfully been used in projects of different sizes and it could not succumb to CADT.

Re: Django 2.1 released

#80

Post by douglaswlance »

borplk wrote: post #61
jtchang wrote: post #44

For anyone thinking about picking up Django and is worried about the framework being obsolete I encourage you to take a look. Django is fantastic. I've worked with it for a number of years now and it can really help in the early stages of prototyping. Things I especially like about Django: * The built in admin letting you edit and view objects easily. * Being able to use it without using the views. Add django rest fr…

A huge reason some people consider frameworks like Django obsolete is because they are focused on an older web paradigm of constructing elaborate html pages on the server side and pushing it out and letting some basic extra js stuff augment it. That's what lead to things like server side HTML form definition and form handling code. After the emergence of things like React, Angular, etc those "html templating" facilit…

You are not required to use Django's templating engine. It works great with React, Vue, Angular, etc. if you use Django Rest Framework as the intermediary.
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