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Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#171

Post by knockingat3am »

econ4all wrote: post #26

There are a couple of recurring themes here: 1. the hyper-moralising over google's business decisions, they're not the only company that modifies its business to access the chinese market nor is the chinese government the only one that demands censorship. 2. google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

Having a whiff of human decency is not hyper-moralising, it's really just having a whiff of human decency.

> google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

So having concerns about people getting killed for their opinions and whatnot is "hyper-moralising", but having concerns about "backstabbing" your employer isn't. Gotcha.

And it's not even backstabbing. When a friend of yours has a really horrible idea -- and that is putting it hyper-mildly in this context -- you are being more of a friend to them when you try to stop them.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#172

Post by macspoofing »

panarky wrote: post #167
macspoofing wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why should there be a different standard for Google and other tech companies to not expand into China. This exactly. I would even make a stronger case. It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power. This is a failure of US and EU governments. They should pressure China to liberalize their government and provide a level economic playing field (it is insane what China gets away wit…

> It's not fair to expect a technology company to fight a major world economic power Google fights major world powers every day [1, 2]. And Google doesn't have to fight to force the Chinese government to stop censoring their citizens. Google can simply choose not to partner with repressive regimes in enabling and legitimizing censorship and mass surveillance. [1] https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overvi…

>Google fights major world powers every day

That's right, if by 'fight' you mean following rules laid out in countries that it operates in. If the rules are completely skewed against them (and other foreign companies) as they are in China, they have no recourse other than to appeal to their government to lobby on their behalf.

Facebook is in a similar position with respect to Russian interference. The narrative pushed by people like Kara Swisher of Recode is that Facebook should have fought a major world power with limitless resources for cyber attacks and because they didn't they are responsible for the damage, instead of demanding to know why the previous and present American administrations allowed an American company and public be harassed by a belligerent foreign power.

>Google can simply choose not to partner with repressive regimes in enabling and legitimizing censorship and mass surveillance.

And you can choose not to buy Chinese-made products and thereby no longer support and legitimize a repressive regime ... but hey, here we are.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#173

Post by pacala »

shazow wrote: post #164
bad_user wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no, I did have a problem, I moved off GSuite to FastMail, I moved off Android, I'm a DuckDuckGo user, I went back to Firefox even before the Quantum release. But I had a lot of respect for Google for pulling out of China on censorship considerations and in fairness (unlike others) they seemed fairly responsible with how they treated the data they collect. Their security at least has been top notch, plus I've see…

Except there is clear evidence that FastMail employees are able and willing to read through your personal emails, and they've become actively user-hostile in their support: https://twitter.com/shazow/status/1021570521987731458 Make of it what you will, but I worked at Google for a time and I came out more convinced that my data is safer there. This was 2012 so maybe things have changed since then, but we need better…

Employee A reading email X does not scale. Google reading everyone's email with ever-better AI systems does scale, and is a much bigger threat to freedom, political or economical.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#174

Post by alexandercrohde »

gt_ wrote: post #153
ohyes wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. The regulations in China are immoral. Obeying immoral laws is also immoral. (If the law says 'gas the [ethnic group]' it is still wrong to do it). If Google must follow immoral laws to operate in China, they should not operate in China. I don't have any pull with the PRC but I can boycott Google.

It sounds like you might be missing a few things. Private companies are, by definition, private entities responsible for prioritizing whatever and however they choose. If you want to have input in a powerful entity, I really recommend starting a government. If you have an old one layout around, maybe dust if off and use that, but it’ll probably take some work. I don’t know where you live, but in the US, there’s a bun…

I as a private individual take responsibility for what companies I do business with, and what those companies do. A company claiming an imperative to stockholders does not excuse me, by my own personal moral standard, from investing in such a company.

Also, I'm sure a number of google employees, and the population in general feel this way. When their engineers have to answer for building the mental handcuffs for China, it may not quite be the bragging right it once was.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#175

Post by gremlinsinc »

There was another hn post a week or two ago, about how China is basically taking over the world, and could leave the USA in it's dust.

Google, may be aware of this 'transition', which is a scary one, considering the 'big brother' scheme they have in China, but if China becomes the king of the world, Google and many other companies will have to play ball to stay viable.

I'm reminded of a commercial where Americans are speaking Chinese, and there are also I think Japanese commercials that show poverty and feature American kids. Kind of disconcerting, and dystopian, but not out of the realm of imagination.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#176

Post by aurizon »

bilbo0s wrote: post #134
aurizon wrote: post #132

Google has two choices:- to be outside - looking in, or to be inside - and engaged. It is axiomatic that China has roots in an oppressive communist titled government. I say titled because it was not communist in the classical sense, any more than the former USSR was communist - again in title only. China will gradually change and adapt - converge, to a more truly representative government as the middle class expands…

"...doing far better than under their former party dictatorships..." Not trying to split hairs or anything, but China is "...under their former party dictatorship..." It's the same party, the only difference is that the leaders today are mostly trained engineers and scientists instead of the mainly political thinkers who preceded them.

Hopefully change will proceed at a faster rate as political hacks go to pasture.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#177

Post by sharcerer »

confeit wrote: post #69
econ4all wrote: post #26

There are a couple of recurring themes here: 1. the hyper-moralising over google's business decisions, they're not the only company that modifies its business to access the chinese market nor is the chinese government the only one that demands censorship. 2. google employees' attempts to sabotage the company's business prospects.

1. It is because we/I expect better from Google. Google has such a huge responsibility, being the gateway to the world's information, and we trust them with that position. For-profit and deliberate blocking access to information erodes that trust. I would not care about other companies doing this, but seeing I care about Google doing this shows me that Google has a great PR/goodwill they've build up over the years. W…

Agree with all your points. I am wondering what justification Sergey,Larry will give for this. If they took good ethical decisions, they would gain more respect from people. I read the book The Google Guys when I was 13 (now 20). Larry,Sergey were the first 2 people i sorta idolized. Been a Google fanboy mainly due to their incredibe R&D,STEM focus. Now, i feel sad. Obviously, not gonna defend bad actions but it's difficult to overcome that bias,fanboyism cultivated over the years. I also wonder why Larry,Sergey are so out of action. They should have at least been more public till they're about 50 years old. Weird thought: maybe somehow Google will help overthrow the communist govt in China in the future. The fact that this news makes so many people sad is evidence of the fact that we expect better from Google.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#178

Post by justinzollars »

Mindwipe wrote: post #158
panarky wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does the article say Google employees are holding their tongues?

Indeed, the fact that only a small amount of staff appear to have access to this project and one of them has leaked it for moral reasons suggests rather the opposite tbh.

These employees are heroes. If you are reading this: Thank you for standing up for Human Rights.

Re: Google Plans to Launch Censored Search Engine in China, Leaked Documents Reveal

#179

Post by yifanl »

pacala wrote: post #173
shazow wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there is clear evidence that FastMail employees are able and willing to read through your personal emails, and they've become actively user-hostile in their support: https://twitter.com/shazow/status/1021570521987731458 Make of it what you will, but I worked at Google for a time and I came out more convinced that my data is safer there. This was 2012 so maybe things have changed since then, but we need better…

Employee A reading email X does not scale. Google reading everyone's email with ever-better AI systems does scale, and is a much bigger threat to freedom, political or economical.

You don't need deep machine learning to write a simple script to fetch data from your servers.

If Google can read all Gmail users' emails, Fastmail can read all their users' emails.

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