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How America Uses Its Land

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Re: How America Uses Its Land

#141

Post by dodgemustang »

avoutthere wrote: post #138
Shivetya wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better map would be to show how much land is in private hands versus held by Federal and State governments. I bet people would be shocked, see this article from 2016 [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/federal...

I've never understood how the federal government holding all of this land has held up in court. What is the constitutional justification for this?

Because the land is owned by the U.S. Federal government after making deals with European countries, Native Americans, and also taking it from Native Americans by force.

No one has yet transfered the property rights to the land to anyone else.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#142

Post by megaman22 »

dodgemustang wrote: post #140
megaman22 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing alfalfa and oranges. You're not going to grow wheat on pastureland that can support sheep or cattle. Much less other vegetables. You're also making the assumption that agricultural land is a resource that needs conservation, when there is a massive surplus of it. We've allowed huge tracts to revert to forest on the east coast.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you but... How is conservation of agricultural land not important? I mean, isn't not being good stewards of the land what gave us the dust bowl?

Conservation isn't the best word there. Maybe optimization is better. It's not scarce, we don't need to agonize over calorie outputs per acre. And if you're going to do that, you don't want to be intensively farming most of this cattle country - there's one of the reasons for the dust bowl.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#143

Post by smohare »

megaman22 wrote: post #139
vfc1 wrote: post #134

Looking at that map, Between livestock pasture, feed and feed export it accounts for around 45% of the US. Food that we eat is only a small fraction. Isn’t this a huge waste of resources, and completely unsustainable? If we ate the produce directly instead of feeding it to cows and eating them, how many people could we feed? What about the gigantic consumption of water this implies? The link between this to global wa…

You're comparing alfalfa and oranges. You're not going to grow wheat on pastureland that can support sheep or cattle. Much less other vegetables. You're also making the assumption that agricultural land is a resource that needs conservation, when there is a massive surplus of it. We've allowed huge tracts to revert to forest on the east coast.

From a resource perspective there is no surplus, due to opportunity costs in land conversion. Mid-term prospects for meeting global food demand boil down to increasing production yields. (Sure, distant technology will probably change this a bit).

http://www.futuredirections.org.au/publication/the-future-pr...

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#144

Post by vfc1 »

megaman22 wrote: post #139
vfc1 wrote: post #134

Looking at that map, Between livestock pasture, feed and feed export it accounts for around 45% of the US. Food that we eat is only a small fraction. Isn’t this a huge waste of resources, and completely unsustainable? If we ate the produce directly instead of feeding it to cows and eating them, how many people could we feed? What about the gigantic consumption of water this implies? The link between this to global wa…

You're comparing alfalfa and oranges. You're not going to grow wheat on pastureland that can support sheep or cattle. Much less other vegetables. You're also making the assumption that agricultural land is a resource that needs conservation, when there is a massive surplus of it. We've allowed huge tracts to revert to forest on the east coast.

Just because there is a surplus of agricultural does mean we should use it.

The one that we use is already causing massive environmental problems.

Grasing is not an inocous activity, there are the methane emissions that are very impactful.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#145

Post by CompelTechnic »

vfc1 wrote: post #134

Looking at that map, Between livestock pasture, feed and feed export it accounts for around 45% of the US. Food that we eat is only a small fraction. Isn’t this a huge waste of resources, and completely unsustainable? If we ate the produce directly instead of feeding it to cows and eating them, how many people could we feed? What about the gigantic consumption of water this implies? The link between this to global wa…

The land used for feed is super low-value land that has no better use. It does contribute a bit to global warming though. The collective action problem we have to solve in order to stop global warming is much more difficult than just getting people to stop eating beef. If you believe feeding livestock in the most cost-effective manner available is wasteful, then there must be an implied route toward less waste. Maybe:

-the government should decree beef and pork illegal

-or implement some sort of high tax or cap and trade measure for livestock and meat

-and perform a massive propoganda campaign to teach people that they should raise their own chickens, eat more beans, and eat less meat/protein overall.

The problem of people not starving to death around the world is not an issue of food supply, it is an issue of food distribution.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#146

Post by vonmoltke »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #79
StillBored wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Texas raising property taxes as such isn't the answer. Rather capping the amount a single owner/organization can claim in ag/etc exemptions, while making it easier for small 20 acre farms to claim the exemption. Right now what you have is the richest land owners paying the lowest rates, while owners of tiny suburban/rural lots get murdered. For example, I give you a few pieces of the 6d ranch, located on…

You pay $15,000 / year in property taxes on a lot less than 1 acre? Is that normal for Texas?

No, it isn't. I was paying $4100 for a similar property in Dallas in 2016.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#147

Post by dodgemustang »

megaman22 wrote: post #142
dodgemustang wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you but... How is conservation of agricultural land not important? I mean, isn't not being good stewards of the land what gave us the dust bowl?

Conservation isn't the best word there. Maybe optimization is better. It's not scarce, we don't need to agonize over calorie outputs per acre. And if you're going to do that, you don't want to be intensively farming most of this cattle country - there's one of the reasons for the dust bowl.

Ah okay, that makes more sense. Thanks.

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#149

Post by DennisP »

vfc1 wrote: post #134

Looking at that map, Between livestock pasture, feed and feed export it accounts for around 45% of the US. Food that we eat is only a small fraction. Isn’t this a huge waste of resources, and completely unsustainable? If we ate the produce directly instead of feeding it to cows and eating them, how many people could we feed? What about the gigantic consumption of water this implies? The link between this to global wa…

That's the main reason a lot of companies are working on lab-grown meat. If they manage to get it cheaper than cows, the impact will be enormous. In principle it should be possible, since it requires far less resources.

The recent book Clean Meat covers the field in detail. Steaks will be a while, but for ground meat we're a lot closer than I'd expected. Dairy is even easier: no cells, just fats, sugars, and proteins that can be produced by engineered yeast.

(The book also has a chapter on just going vegan, but points out that despite decades of advocacy, people's behavior has barely changed. When people can afford meat, they eat it, and it's been that way for pretty much all of human history.)

Re: How America Uses Its Land

#150

Post by baybal2 »

Shivetya wrote: post #126
rayiner wrote: post #48

The one third being used for cows is misleading. Pasture is basically the Bureau of Land Management’s default use for the vast swaths of federal land. It’s like “here is this land, you’re allowed to graze on it with a permit.” That doesn’t produce that many cows—it’s more about politics and the fact that much of the land is good for little else besides growing grass. The real land use from growing meat comes from the…

I think a better map would be to show how much land is in private hands versus held by Federal and State governments. I bet people would be shocked, see this article from 2016 [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/federal...

I advise Americans to auction empty federal land holdings. having so much of land in state's property is wrong, and very uncapitalist.
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