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Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

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121–130 of 194 posts

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're complaining about the disease and then complaining about the cure. I'm not, I'm saying when someone treats you badly for ten years then suddenly changes their attitude, it's reasonable to wonder what motivated the change. Tesla stopped being flush with cash and the recovery stopped being young years ago. He's announced ambitious production schedules (and missed them) multiple times. The 'we won't need more ca…

> The real difference I see this time is a perceived closeness with Trump and general misbehavior on twitter Financial markets aren't known to be sensitive to leaders' political proclivities. Yet the bonds are down and stock's volatility up. Could part of the negative coverage be motivated by Elon's personality and politics? Sure. But the risk profile of the company changed with the SolarCity acquisition and Model 3…

It's interesting that there's been a massive delay between risk profile change in 2016 and 2017 and the recent drop - a drop that it appears may be temporary. I know a lot of people that have been shorting Tesla for years and have been continuously surprised by its seemingly irrational rise in stock price.

If you look at their cash burn in Q4 2016 and Q2-Q3 2017, it doesn't fit with the press on the company or its stock performance at the time. Instead, the price hit all-time highs over that period and press was glowing.

I get that as the production numbers didn't increase along with capex there's a crunch in Q1-Q2 2018, but it doesn't seem to me that this is the reason behind tech news' change of heart.

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#122
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've sufficiently proven the argument which the rest of your statements hinge on: "People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest". It's an attractive (if somewhat cynical) point, but it's no more reasonable than any other generalisation. Not very.

If anything, voting patterns in the US prove this wrong.

Tax reform means my organically growing startup gets to keep 33% more of our profit to reinvest back into the company, which has meaningfully impacted our annual budget and growth trajectory.

VC funded startups get the advantage of growing ahead of profit, and booking tax losses which they can carry forward.

Bootstrapping means growth driven by profit, which necessitates paying income taxes on the ever growing cash balance which flows from growing revenues & expenses (e.g. always having 3 months operating expenses in the bank)

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You're complaining about the disease and then complaining about the cure. I'm not, I'm saying when someone treats you badly for ten years then suddenly changes their attitude, it's reasonable to wonder what motivated the change. Tesla stopped being flush with cash and the recovery stopped being young years ago. He's announced ambitious production schedules (and missed them) multiple times. The 'we won't need more ca…

You wandered off into conspiracy theory land.

I don't believe I did. It's not a conspiracy to point out that if the press is doing their job now by investigating things, they were not doing their job for years previously. If you don't do what you're supposed to for years, then suddenly change, is it a conspiracy to think that something caused that change?

It's not crazy to point out that the press hates Donald Trump, and that Donald Trump loves Elon Musk. It's also not crazy to point out that there's a general cooling of the public's feeling towards tech, and that journalists, particularly hacks, just go where the wind is blowing. It's not due to them suddenly doing their jobs, and it doesn't make them anymore correct now than they were six months ago. Elon Musk is now an easier target, that's all, and he's done them a service by provoking them at the same time.

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#124
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think linuxftw was necessarily saying that government intervention is inappropriate. They were saying that the nature of government intervention is to distort the underlying economics. It is therefore unsurprising when businesses grow up around these temporary distortions rather than long term business models. It's the "price" we pay for whatever upsides there are to the subsidy.

Then I support this intervention. This idea that there is some "pure" form of undisturbed economics that is practiced outside the framework of achieving some larger social objective is also an absurd myth.

> Oh then, is the subsidy for fossil fuels and roads driving increased intensity of hurricane storms?

I am unable to reply to this directly due to comment depth.

Public highways provide certain economic incentives. Land that would be of marginal utility due to transportation costs without public highways now has greater economic utility. This utility provides economic incentives to private automobiles to capitalize on that land. These public highways create traffic and pollution via suburban sprawl that would otherwise be much less. Public utilities also help subsidize suburban sprawl.

Increased economic destruction by hurricanes (whether worsened by fossil fuels or not) is due to government providing economic incentives to construct in coastal areas subject to hurricane damage. The federal government subsidizes flood insurance for properties in these areas, make the actual cost of ownership lower for the developers and higher for others (tax payers). Perhaps it's cheaper to not erect suburban neighborhoods in areas prone to flooding in the first place.

It's all interconnected. Government subsidies in their various forms impact economic decisions for better or for worse.

> If you think so then what should we do with the increased destruction of property who at perhaps only peripherally participated in that subsidy?

Don't subsidize the reconstruction of properties damaged by hurricanes and flooding. The market will equalize the situation by 1) Insurance will be more expensive 2) Property value will decrease due to increased insurance cost (total cost of ownership) 3) Builders will be highly incentivized to build more hurricane resistant buildings in order to obtain lower insurance rates 4) Hurricanes will have less economic impact due to the aforementioned facts

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#125
post #31

My partner worked for various solar companies (But not Solar City) as a canvasser hoping to get some sales experience. As a result we got to see first hand how corrupt and underhanded their sales departments could be. Canvassers were exploited mercilessly and commissions never appeared as new requirements were added to the payouts. Paychecks bounced periodically. Canvassers would be told to go door to door in areas w…

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of o…

> People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest.

Why does 89 octane gasoline exist?

The magic of solar city is simple -- they figured out how to market easy monthly payments for a big capital investment. People decide to go solar for all sorts of reasons, and financial is usually not the driver. I live in the northeast, and it's marginal value, you save like $20/mo in electric bills and are stuck with a lease on your roof. Many of my neighbors with solar could save $50/month with a much a $4,000 investment windows, and a few hundred in chaulk and spray foam.

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wandered off into conspiracy theory land.

I don't believe I did. It's not a conspiracy to point out that if the press is doing their job now by investigating things, they were not doing their job for years previously. If you don't do what you're supposed to for years, then suddenly change, is it a conspiracy to think that something caused that change? It's not crazy to point out that the press hates Donald Trump, and that Donald Trump loves Elon Musk. It's a…

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Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#128
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of o…

> People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. I would add that they will make choices in their understanding of their economic self-interest. People are not rational actors.

Rationality, in the economic sense, doesn't mean making objectively correct decisions as perceived from the outside. It means to make decisions in the furtherance of a particular subjective goal. Making decisions that later turn out to be counter to those ends does not mean that person was behaving irrationality, just that they were wrong.

In other words, economically irrational actors are individuals who act consistently against their own self interest, even as they perceive it. Almost no one is irrational in that sense.

It's a loose definition, but it's all that is needed to make markets functional.

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#129
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of o…

China threw massive subsidies at solar, and they readily admit there was a great deal of waste and graft, but now that the dust has settled China is the industry leader.

But there's no telling what the opportunity cost was. Likely far more massive than whatever short-term benefits from being an industry leader.

Re: Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales

#130
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I support this intervention. This idea that there is some "pure" form of undisturbed economics that is practiced outside the framework of achieving some larger social objective is also an absurd myth.

> Oh then, is the subsidy for fossil fuels and roads driving increased intensity of hurricane storms? I am unable to reply to this directly due to comment depth. Public highways provide certain economic incentives. Land that would be of marginal utility due to transportation costs without public highways now has greater economic utility. This utility provides economic incentives to private automobiles to capitalize o…

> Increased economic destruction by hurricanes (whether worsened by fossil fuels or not) is due to government providing economic incentives to construct in coastal areas subject to hurricane damage.

No, infrastructure built to hurricane standards 50 years ago might be perfectly strong to stand against current storms of the time. If increased storm strength is cause by fossil fuels (and that likelyhood is strongly supported by scientific studies), then the fossil fuels (with or with subsidies) will have incurred costs to a lot of other externalized actors. Shouldn't that industry have to pay?

> Don't subsidize the reconstruction of properties damaged by hurricanes and flooding.

By leaving "the market" to contend with increased hurricane resistance alone you have just caused increased expenses for everyone building homes for ignoring fossil fuel externalities (some of which was encouraged by gov't subsisdy). And it's not just homes, it's maybe reworking entire metropolitan areas sewer or housing zones.

All of this underlines that the practice of "economics" has no such neutral starting point. Any action, even the action of letting "the market" decide is a social and political decision of helping some parties over others (or, better, helping many parties together). And these decisions often can't be disaggregated into neat isolated and individualized transactions or responsibilities.

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