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Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

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Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#91

Post by y-c-o-m-b »

ta1234567890 wrote: post #76
y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #43

Healthcare costs are by far the #1 reason why I want to move out of the U.S. as soon as possible. I am well off, but due to recent experience I have a major anxiety about going bankrupt from another unexpected health issue. I had emergency spine surgery last year and despite coordinating everything I could to stay in network prior to entering the hospital - surgeon was in network, hospital in network, etc... - the mo…

So sorry for what happened to you. Can relate a bit. A few months ago, when we learned that my wife would have to get a C-section, we tried getting an estimate for how much it would cost - asked doctors, nurses, hospital staff, insurance company, etc. No one could or would tell us, not even give us a range. Our best guess was to read online articles, which don't really help very much (unless you are into stressing yo…

That's really frustrating, sorry. I would think a c-section is such a relatively routine procedure that estimating the costs would be a trivial matter, but I guess that just shows how seriously complicated the healthcare system is overall.

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#92

Post by komali2 »

malvosenior wrote: post #75
chrisbennet wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care costs were (and are) increasing. The rate of increase slowed under the last administration. [1] Your costs may have gone up if you were part of a low risk group because under Obamacare, low risk individuals were made to share the cost of other insureds who were stupid enough to get old, be poor or have existing health issues that made them unprofitable for insurance companies to insure. Obamacare also rem…

> low risk individuals were made to share the cost of other insureds Yes, that's a huge part of the problem right there. If I'm healthy and work hard to be healthy, I have zero interest in paying for someone else's health problems. I have my own family to feed and we're talking about massive amounts of money that I get no direct benefit from.

>massive amounts of money that I get no direct benefit from

If your value system is "let the lepers die in the street," our value systems are so far removed from each other that the best thing we can do is respectfully not engage.

But because we're both already here, and you seem to care a lot about money, maybe we should talk about money?

Do you like living in a city, country, state with high GDP? This can improve the price of goods locally as your country has a stronger bargaining position in international trade agreements. This means higher paying jobs are available because bigger companies are willing to play ball to set up shop locally.

The health of the general population is tied directly to GDP. Healthier population, better GDP. If you like $$$, support universal healthcare. It's a good long term investment.

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#93

Post by y-c-o-m-b »

jcadam wrote: post #81
y-c-o-m-b wrote: post #43

Healthcare costs are by far the #1 reason why I want to move out of the U.S. as soon as possible. I am well off, but due to recent experience I have a major anxiety about going bankrupt from another unexpected health issue. I had emergency spine surgery last year and despite coordinating everything I could to stay in network prior to entering the hospital - surgeon was in network, hospital in network, etc... - the mo…

> Healthcare costs are by far the #1 reason why I want to move out of the U.S. as soon as possible. Hope you and your family are in perfect health if you plan to immigrate to a country with socialized healthcare. Most such countries will reject families with an autistic child, for example, based on the notion that said child will be heavily dependent on govt/health services.

Good to know, I did not consider that. It doesn't necessarily have to be socialized healthcare for me as long as private healthcare prices and treatments are reasonable.

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#94

Post by improbable22 »

harryh wrote: post #77
andybak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible both accusations are valid? i.e. "A plague on both your houses"... Maybe it's your political class that's broken.

I think that is part of it. I also think a lot of it has to do with size & diversity. - The US is ~4x more populous than Germany (most populous in Western Europe) - The US is ~15x larger than France (largest in Western Europe) - The US is significantly more racially diverse than any country in Europe which is a huge advantage in many ways but also comes with more challenging governance particularly when you factor in…

Quite a few US states are bigger than EU countries which manage to run their own decent systems. (e.g. NY: 19 million, Switzerland: 8 million.) What's the argument against letting them run it?

Maybe there have to be some federal ground rules. But having wider experimentation would seem like a good thing, for discovering good ways to run a system.

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#95

Post by dsfyu404ed »

mfringel wrote: post #78
JimboOmega wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't read it as "blame the consumer" but "the system is opaque". The consumer doesn't know and can't find out. Articles have been written for, I don't know, a decade or more decrying the opacity of the "Chargemaster", etc, and how if you call a hospital to ask the charge for a procedure, they probably can't give you a quote. If you have certain kinds of insurance, you're not even incentivized to care - you tolerat…

The problem I have with the "blame the consumer" trope is that there's the implicit "and if consumers had full pricing knowledge, The Market(tm) would correct all of the other issues, and healthcare in the US would be fixed." I assert this mostly through anecdotal evidence based on where these conversations tend to go. I also find it to be some of the most disingenuous handwaving I've seen in recent memory. No one is…

>The problem I have with the "blame the consumer" trope is that there's the implicit "and if consumers had full pricing knowledge, The Market(tm) would correct all of the other issues, and healthcare in the US would be fixed." I assert this mostly through anecdotal evidence based on where these conversations tend to go.

If the consumer had full pricing knowledge beforehand then the market would certainly correct some of the other issues, probably not all but certainly some. Take a look at dental for example.

>I also find it to be some of the most disingenuous handwaving I've seen in recent memory. No one is going to comparison-shop when they have a ruptured appendix. Worse, if they think they can just "tough out" the abdominal pain because they can't afford the doctor visit _or the treatment that might result from it_, they'll just die.

Getting ripped of because you couldn't afford the time to shop around is par for the course in many industries. Yes, some peoples' appendices will rupture without warning but many more people will have conditions that give ample warning and allow comparison shopping. I think this there is a very good comparison to automotive repair in these scenarios (albeit higher dollar amounts and consumers being more willing to have work done up front to avoid more later).

> a system way off the rails.

I agree.

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#96

Post by komali2 »

whatok wrote: post #33
maxxxxx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all fairness health care costs were shooting up long before Obamacare. Obamacare just did nothing to change that trend.

What's the first word in the act's name?

Affordable.

You opened the can of worms, now eat it.

Healthcare costs were always increasing. That trend slowed under Obama.

https://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/slower-premium-growth-unde...

Democrats wanted a much better of the ACA, but let's not forget that Republicans were walking around talking about how they'd "oppose anything Obama did," without even reading the texts of the bills

http://swampland.time.com/2012/08/23/the-party-of-no-new-det...

So back to my original point - Republicans, why they be like they do?

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#97

Post by komali2 »

malvosenior wrote: post #37
isolli wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the Obamacare horror stories paraded in 2010 were easily debunked. Everyone acknowledged that some people would be hurt in the transition. The surprising fact was that it was so hard to find someone who was convincingly, demonstrably hurt.

From Forbes: "premium increases averaged about 60 percent from 2013, the last year before ACA reforms took effect, to 2017" https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/03/22/yes-it...

Healthcare costs increases slowed under ACA.

https://www.factcheck.org/2015/02/slower-premium-growth-unde...

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#98

Post by komali2 »

sv123 wrote: post #82
RightMillennial wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What compromise? The ACA passed the House [1] and Senate [2] without a single Republican vote. [1]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03... > The House voted 219 to 212 to approve the measure, with every Republican voting no. [2]: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12... > Vice President Biden presided over the 60 to 39 party-line vote, ...

It was watered down to make it a "budget bill" under the Senate rules so it could withstand filibuster. (In doing this, the ACA had to be stripped of almost all its cost-containment features.)

It's incredible to witness, real-time, people such as who you're replying to trying to change the facts of history mere years after the thing occurred.

This is in line with my original point - since when did facts become so malleable?

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#99

Post by komali2 »

malvosenior wrote: post #58
knuththetruth wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, they’re entirely to blame and I’m just as angry as anyone for them furthering this broken system. But their choice of doing so was guided by right-wing ideology. The Democratic Party is a center-right party. You might not be able to single out any one party for this problem, but you can certainly indict those who further this kind of thinking in the face of its demonstrable moral and economic failure.

I'm sorry but the sheer amount of regulation around healthcare is not a right-wing ideology. Let's get the free market in here and watch costs come crashing down. Do away with mandatory coverage, subscription windows, the government run "marketplace" and costs will come down. There's nothing right-wing about any of those features.

In a free market, why would the insurance companies continue to cover someone that got cancer?

And then, when coverage was revoked, why would any other person insure this new cancer patient?

Re: Why Americans Spend So Much on Health Care–In 12 Charts

#100

Post by harryh »

improbable22 wrote: post #94
harryh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is part of it. I also think a lot of it has to do with size & diversity. - The US is ~4x more populous than Germany (most populous in Western Europe) - The US is ~15x larger than France (largest in Western Europe) - The US is significantly more racially diverse than any country in Europe which is a huge advantage in many ways but also comes with more challenging governance particularly when you factor in…

Quite a few US states are bigger than EU countries which manage to run their own decent systems. (e.g. NY: 19 million, Switzerland: 8 million.) What's the argument against letting them run it? Maybe there have to be some federal ground rules. But having wider experimentation would seem like a good thing, for discovering good ways to run a system.

It could work but you'd probably have at least a moderate free loader problem with it being so easy to move from state to state.

There would be nothing to prevent a healthy person from living in a low tax/no gov't health care state until they get sick and then moving to a high tax state/state paid for care.

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