The Decline and Fall of the American Empire • Hacker News Board

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#31

Post by 40acres » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

gooseus wrote: post #26

40acres wrote: post #11

If you ask me, the fall of America from the lone 'superpower' to a 'great power' is all but assured as long as the structural racial inequality in this county persists. Let's take a look at education for an example: USA ranks pretty low on global education rankings despite the fact that we have some of the best schools in the world across all levels, its hard to think why that may be the case but when you consider th…

Doesn't India's vestigial caste system create a similar structural racial equality problem there? Would America's racial inequality not be an issue if we had 3x the population?

I think you can mask a lot of issues through sheer population numbers. India and China have really structural issues with their economies, democracies, etc. But if India can get itself to 50% middle class as the US that's 200M more people than we have in this country right now.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#32

Post by StyloBill » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:48 PM UTC

hokumguru wrote: post #24

It seems that American journalists and coastal elites do nothing more lately than (ironically) talk about how much they hate their country. What happened to patriotism? Why is it so 'cool' nowadays to hate the USA?

Have you looked at who's occupying the oval office lately? Nothing to do with it being cool though.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#33

Post by DrLevingston » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:50 PM UTC

hokumguru wrote: post #24

It seems that American journalists and coastal elites do nothing more lately than (ironically) talk about how much they hate their country. What happened to patriotism? Why is it so 'cool' nowadays to hate the USA?

It's fashionable among elites in America to be cynical, especially about America. They revel in putting America down and seem to enjoy schadenfreude at the thought of America declining. They are very misguided people.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#34

Post by elbasti » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

Areading314 wrote: post #2

Can we stop calling the world's largest democracy an empire? Belligerent nation sure but it's so click baity and inaccurate

Well, to be technical the US does have colonies and territories--the largest of which is Puerto Rico, whose residents have no vote in US elections. There are a number of other small colonies with varying degrees of independence and representation (Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands).

And of course the US almost in it's entirety owes its size and natural resources to very real "empire building" in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Admittedly the territorial expansion of the US has slowed/stopped in the past 100-200 years, but it's not hard to understand how for someone belonging to a group that lived in a given place for many, many multiples of that duration, the current situation might feel, even today, like occupation. (see: hawaii sovereignty movement, native american reservations)

I suppose the question is "when does an empire stop being an empire?" Is it the day it stops expanding? 100 years later? When nobody remembers how things were "before"? I think it's an interesting question.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#35

Post by Symmetry » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

Areading314 wrote: post #2

Can we stop calling the world's largest democracy an empire? Belligerent nation sure but it's so click baity and inaccurate

Being a democracy or not doesn't really have anything to do with being an empire, generally you have an empire when you have a state substantially composed of multiple nations. But generally with imperial democracies its only one nation that is a democracy, like in the British Empire where Britain, a democracy, ruled a huge colonial empire.

If you really squint hard you could argue that the rest of NATO are military tribute states giving soldiers to the US empire but that's a very strained interpretation. Japan is currently pretty dependent on US military protection but that doesn't seem to have turned into economic exploitation. Certainly American efforts to get Japan to open up to more US exports isn't something Japan has just rolled over on.

But the current international system does have the US at its center and colloquially people call this the American Empire, and we know what they're talking about even if it isn't really an empire.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#36

Post by 40acres » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #19

40acres wrote: post #11

If you ask me, the fall of America from the lone 'superpower' to a 'great power' is all but assured as long as the structural racial inequality in this county persists. Let's take a look at education for an example: USA ranks pretty low on global education rankings despite the fact that we have some of the best schools in the world across all levels, its hard to think why that may be the case but when you consider th…

Can you name a time in America's history when there wasn't segregation and inequality?

There has never been a time where America wasn't segregated or in equal. I think throughout America's history we've had a long runway: the fact that the continent was open to use w/o a well organized Mexican or Indian state to stop expansion, the isolation from WW1 & WW2, the fast amount of land in this country and natural resources, the decline of Europe and relative weakness of China, etc. We've been able to take advantage of these conditions for 200+ years. The rest of the world is catching up though, we will need to really unlock the potential of people who in the past have been marginalized to continue our run as a superpower.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#37

Post by DrLevingston » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

StyloBill wrote: post #32

hokumguru wrote: post #24

It seems that American journalists and coastal elites do nothing more lately than (ironically) talk about how much they hate their country. What happened to patriotism? Why is it so 'cool' nowadays to hate the USA?

Have you looked at who's occupying the oval office lately? Nothing to do with it being cool though.

Of course it is, American popular culture loves cynicism, especially about America.

Why would you hate America because of the president in office? America is so much more than the President or the party in power. America is the underlying institutional design, the system of checks and balances, the Constitution, the accepted transfer of power.

Cynics don't seem to appreciate any of these things, their respect for America resting entirely on a myopic view of who occupies the Oval Office.

That's the problem.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#38

Post by Hasknewbie » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 4:01 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #23

What seems least plausible about this to me is that a long period of decline like that (basically what happened to France and the UK) wouldn't result in something like a civil war or other split in the US.

Based on observed uprising or civil wars [1], to have one of those you need (1) stark mass poverty that borders on famine, i.e. people really scrapping by, and (2) Youth! It's much much easier for a younger population to revolt.

And, no offense, but relative to the rest of the world Americans are kind of old and kind of fat.

So: probably not.

[1] Sources:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2013/07/18/youth-in...

https://www.fragilestates.org/2012/11/25/causes-of-revolutio...

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#39

Post by dalbasal » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

I like the author, and his out there style has produced some gems. This article though, it feels like he started, but didn't really get anywhere.

What is (for the purpose of this article) "American Empire" anyway?

If it's relative economic & military power, than the writing is on the wall. China is matching and surpassing the US now.

Is it "Empire of the Mind" where the US leads the world in terms of political ideas, holds the torch of civilization and such? That's a whole different discussion.

Is this an article about upcoming disasters of a political-economic kind?

Re: The Decline and Fall of the American Empire

#40

Post by _cs2017_ » Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 4:04 PM UTC

Stupid click bait. Expected to read about the fall of civilization in America, kinda like a fusion of Mad Max + Walking Dead. Instead read about high taxes and elderly people causing congestion on the roads.

That's what happens when economists write, they make the coolest topic boring af.