As soon as higher-level programming languages such as COBOL, Algol, and FORTRAN came out; many clerks in the mid 1960's onward learned programming without knowing about the hardware guts or theory. Thus, the layering of specialties had already begun.
I'm not that sold on this. Programming in ASM isn't really "harder" than programming in Haskell, it's just slower - it requires discipline, but not the ability to grasp abstraction that some more modern languages need. I think that issues like knowing "how do compilers actually work" or "this thing is actually the halting problem, let's stop" are more relevant than how removed from latches and memory controllers one…
Computer science as a lost art (2015)
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Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#12Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#13But, any serious business that's going to churn a lot of data, needs fast pipelines, needs to invent entire new markets or ideas will heavily rely on people with patience and training in scientific process.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#14So, for the dogshed builders among us, what might be the recommended pathway to learn some architecture--beyond the obvious academic options? I'm sure this has been covered to death on HN already, but if anyone has a link bookmarked and feels like sharing?
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#15Well stated. I recently went through (the recordings of) MIT’s intro course for electrical engineers, in which somewhere the professor says students may wonder why they have to do all this calculus and learn FET models and so on — in real life don’t you just wire chips together? And he points out that MIT degrees are for the people who make the chips.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#16To be honest, I get secretly frustrated with the lower-level people who now exist in giant hordes. (I rarely tell anyone that.) To me, they are like people who have decided to learn 5% of their field in order to get a few things done, have some fun, and make a living.
These people use tools to create little applications for everyday use. But remember: The tools themselves are also software. But they are a level of software far beyond anything these people could dream of creating. They use languages, editors, compilers, and operating systems; but they don't have the first clue about how to create any of these things or even how they really work.
The most disturbing thing to me, based on interviews I've conducted, is that this seems to include some large fraction of people graduating with a Computer Science degree from supposedly top tier schools with high GPAs that supposedly mean something.
If you want to make really interesting exciting things that have never existed before, if you want to make a tiny little difference in the industry and change the world just a little bit, then you do need that degree. If you want to make the tools and libraries that the lower-level people use, you do need that degree.
The tools and libraries aren't sentient AI yet. If you want to use the tools and libraries at a high level, then you really need to have some knowledge about how they work. The disturbing thing I might be seeing, is that something like 40% of graduates from even good schools have that Computer Science degree, yet really only have that 5% knowledge, yet have been led to think that they know more.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#17Bootcamps can be valuable, but they are in no way comparable to a 4 year degree from a decent CS program. The top performing bootcamps are either functioning as an extended job interview that you have to pay for, or they are very good at selecting experienced students who only need a 12 week course to be ready to be productive developers. In my opinion, the reason we've seen bootcamps close or fail to expand is that there is a limited supply of these types of students.
For the vast majority of people a 12 week course, no matter how intensive, is a good introduction, but a lot of training is still necessary to be useful. If you are prepared to invest in that training, they can be great hires. However, you need to be aware that it's likely going to be months before you get real productive work without hand-holding. It takes most people a lot longer than 12 weeks to be comfortable with the basics of moving up and down through levels of abstraction.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#18No, you need to somehow invest more time to build more features than another sucker out there. That's almost entirely it. Period. Shit is just fast enough these days, and if your industry cares about performance, well then maybe understanding something about caching that can be learned in less than a day from a blog article will help you with 80% of your problems.
There's plenty of work out there that craves better solutions, and a degree is absolutely not even a nice to have at this point. Let me repeat: there are fundamentally basic applications and software solutions that various industries are dying to have exist, millions of dollars on the line if you know what industries in question, that simply just take a damn long time to implement but every individual piece is so far removed from so much as a basic comp sci 101 algo class, that you're literally just talking about business logic at that point.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#19Well stated. I recently went through (the recordings of) MIT’s intro course for electrical engineers, in which somewhere the professor says students may wonder why they have to do all this calculus and learn FET models and so on — in real life don’t you just wire chips together? And he points out that MIT degrees are for the people who make the chips.
You never know when background knowledge and first principles might come in handy. One of my favorite YouTuber practical engineers has this story about going on a boat trip. The new coffee maker on board was freaked out by the noise from the inverter and kept shutting itself off. A total disaster! There would be no coffee the whole trip. So he turned on the blender while making the coffee, and the coffee maker started working. How did he know? He knew what kind of motor was in the blender, and knew its windings would increase the inductance of the circuit the kitchen appliances, filtering out the higher frequencies put out by the cheap inverter.
This guy isn't an electrician. ("Elekchicken") His day job is just to put pieces of "industrial lego" together -- just like how so many programmer jobs now are mainly about gluing libraries together. But he never shies away from knowledge of first principles, and he demonstrates all the time why such knowledge is valuable.
Re: Computer science as a lost art (2015)
#20Well stated. I recently went through (the recordings of) MIT’s intro course for electrical engineers, in which somewhere the professor says students may wonder why they have to do all this calculus and learn FET models and so on — in real life don’t you just wire chips together? And he points out that MIT degrees are for the people who make the chips.