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Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

blog.alinelerner.com

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Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't pluck candidates out from an unbiased set at random. Companies that are attractive to women get top tier women to apply which means they're able to select their 50% from the top 5% of women. And guess what, a major factor in a company being attractive to women is a culture where women have a voice roughly equal to men. Increasing your percentage of women increases your candidate quality, not decreases…

Seems like this does not scale in any meaningful way. Got any companies with 50% women in jobs where the applicant pool is 20% with a large population of employees? Hint hiring women in marketing to balance the male software developers wouldn't prove much.

When I talk to my female engineering friends, Stripe, Slack, Patreon, Pinterest & AirBNB consistently come up as great work cultures for women. They preferentially apply for those companies first over other places because of the work culture.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people care so much about what others look like in a field instead of doing what they're interested in? Perhaps that's the real issue at the root of all this.

>> Why do people care so much about what others look like in a field instead of doing what they're interested in? That cuts both ways. Many people will not hire someone who "doesn't look the part" because they think that means they can't do the job.

That's a different problem and falls under opportunity actually being denied, and those people are wrong for doing so. They should be educated to change their ways, or removed from that position if they fail to do so.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not simple or easy. It's not completely possible either, as life itself isn't fair. That's just the reality we live in. But that's why we should do the best we can, to make it as fair as possible , and while there is much progress to be made around the world, there are also some clearly wrong ways to go about it and diversity quotas are about as worse as it gets.

I guess quotas is such a vague term maybe it’s pointless to argue this. There can me more or less effective/fair implementations of a quota system. I’m not sure what better ideas are out there that don’t involve measuring the result in terms of diversity in a certain field, and optimizing to increase that result... which is in effect a quota.

But that's the issue, nothing should be done for a certain result because that's assuming there is some omniscient knowledge of what is the "right" outcome. That just doesn't exist so attempting it will always lead to chaos.

Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to write this as a throwaway but you know f it. I stand by my stories. > As such I believe quotas are a good thing You don't address the article's claim that quotas make stereotype threat worse. This is a real, lived experience. In high school, I (an overrepresented minority) failed to get in to MIT, and my best friend (an underrepresented minority) got in, despite me looking better 'on paper'[0]. He chos…

Thank you for this perspective. I’m not going to argue. It sounds like this experience sucks mightily and I need to give it some thought.

also consider Aline's anecdata that interviewing.io has a high rate of placing underrepresented individuals into employment, without a quota system.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess quotas is such a vague term maybe it’s pointless to argue this. There can me more or less effective/fair implementations of a quota system. I’m not sure what better ideas are out there that don’t involve measuring the result in terms of diversity in a certain field, and optimizing to increase that result... which is in effect a quota.

But that's the issue, nothing should be done for a certain result because that's assuming there is some omniscient knowledge of what is the "right" outcome. That just doesn't exist so attempting it will always lead to chaos. Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible.

> Give people freedom and the opportunity to do what they want, and then the result will naturally be the fairest possible.

If we all started with the same options, this would be true. Our limits would only be reflections of our preferences and natural abilities. Like in an RPG where we pick wether to be a warrior or mage or whatever - you go down a skills path by choice based on what you want to achieve and what resources (xp etc) you have.

Unfortunately people are born into an active system wherein millions of events from before they were born are exerting pressures on their lives, pressures that we are mostly unaware of until it’s too late.

There’s no neutral “fair” option. This sucks. It’s bad. It’s stupid. People’s location or race or sex at birth should not bless them or condemn them. It should just be an interesting detail. But those things have real effects.

Ignoring this means accepting the current biases as somehow natural, and continues rewarding those already born with advantages. Fighting it means adding NEW biases, and reducing the advantages inherited by people with privilege. Which naturally seems unreasonable if you currently enjoy the benefits of those advantages.

Solutions like yours, which require no work be done to change things by the privileged, and ask the less privileged to reinterpret the status quo so that they realize things are fine as they are, should be suspect. They are not all definitely wrong, but they are especially attractive because of their convenience. And that pretty exterior can mask their lack of actual substance.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#96
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Isn't it better to treat people as individuals? > This is an equally impossible goal. For being such impossible goal it seem strange then that 21th century society is basically built around that exact concept. Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. Even education here…

> Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. ... these are all examples of places where bias is rampant. Banks, courts, government assistance, insurance premiums, and even medical care are not delivered to all individuals equally. Not at all. Not remotely. Through activism an…

So you want to return to the old ways where banks look at gender, race and economic class?

Where courts make predefined judgment and don't even bother to giver a person their day in court?

Where government make one size fit all decision based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation?

Where insurance companies refuse insurance based on race?

Where doctors use force sterilization, or outright refuse service based on race or economical class?

Where kids of low economical class is not allowed to go to school.

> Through activism and lawsuits that these areas have made strides towards fairness... but you seem to be holding them up as an example of treating people as individuals “done right” or “done successfully”.

Through equal respectfully suggestion, the above statement is completely incoherent with reality of today, and represents weird negative thinking. The improvement on those area are real, and suggesting that the old ways are better is sad.

> I respectfully suggest ...

If you are trying to insult someone don't bother to wrap it up like that. If you want a thread full of insults then just insult, and if you do not want that then rethink what you wrote and why you wrote it.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#97
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banks lend out money based on it. Courts make judgement based on it. Government gives out social support based on it. Insurance rates and medical care is all about individual assessment. ... these are all examples of places where bias is rampant. Banks, courts, government assistance, insurance premiums, and even medical care are not delivered to all individuals equally. Not at all. Not remotely. Through activism an…

So you want to return to the old ways where banks look at gender, race and economic class? Where courts make predefined judgment and don't even bother to giver a person their day in court? Where government make one size fit all decision based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation? Where insurance companies refuse insurance based on race? Where doctors use force sterilization, or outright refuse service bas…

You are right - I should have written more carefully. I strongly disagree with the statement, but you are still a person and the fact that we don't currently agree on this doesn't mean I should insult you. It was bad writing. I did mean to target the statement, not the person.

However your questions in this reply, and the idea that I think the "old ways" are better ... I mean that's not in my argument. That's creating a false binary and trying to contort my statements into something that you can readily dismiss. You are insisting that somehow continuing to improve things means returning to the old ways.

It also seems to be a common tactic used by people with power to justify the status quo. I'm ok with dropping it here since we're apparently talking right past each other.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#98
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want to return to the old ways where banks look at gender, race and economic class? Where courts make predefined judgment and don't even bother to giver a person their day in court? Where government make one size fit all decision based on gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation? Where insurance companies refuse insurance based on race? Where doctors use force sterilization, or outright refuse service bas…

You are right - I should have written more carefully. I strongly disagree with the statement, but you are still a person and the fact that we don't currently agree on this doesn't mean I should insult you. It was bad writing. I did mean to target the statement, not the person. However your questions in this reply, and the idea that I think the "old ways" are better ... I mean that's not in my argument. That's creatin…

We are talking past each other, but with the correct tone maybe we could find if and what we disagree on.

Lets apply a quota system to those system above that today operate on individual assessment, using current imbalance that statistical evidence can detect.

Banks have data on who defaults on loans based on any number of conceivable categories, and likely incorporate some of that during an assessment. A quota system where they would grant or deny loans based on a single identity would not only be less fair because individuals can be part of multiple groups, but it would also institutionalize discrimination based on historical data. For the benefit of society it would be better if the system was more blind and relied less on the fact that people from low economic class defaults more on their loan that those from the higher economic classes.

Insurance companies is in the same boat. Having people of different categories pay higher rates make sense from a historical perspective, but it make for a worse society when women automatically pay higher medical insurance and men pay higher car insurance. Quotas where people are sorted into specific rates create a worse society.

Thankfully for both banking and insurance, individual assessment is more economical from a corporate perspective. A strict quota system which simply represented a single category of assumed risk is less effective at predicting a individual person. Individual employees of companies might still use discriminative quotas as shortcuts, but thankfully in most places that is illegal under anti-discrimination laws. There is no quota on how many African Americans can get a loan regardless of the rate of defaulting that that group historically has.

Some people have jested and suggested to have quotas in the legal system to correct existing bias. They say: Simply put more white people (and women) in jail! Obviously a quota system here would be terrible and the issue of racism and sexism in the legal system should be fixed through better individual assessments rather than quotas. Race and gender blindness would be a major improvement, while quotas would make society a much darker place.

See the theme here where blindness is the general cure to the ailment of bias and where quotas based on historical data would be terrible? Let see some examples where quotas are used.

There is an infamous school "lottery" in some places where kids from rich families have multiple choices (since they can sigh up to any number of good schools and move to places where they "win"), while kids from low economical class do not have that option and simply has to hope that they get one of the token slots from the good schools that their class get a quota from. Quotas has made matters worse, as been argued by teacher, parents and politicians alike. You don't fix the problem of good and bad schools through quotas, but rather by fixing the schools. The school should be blind to how much money a child parents has and simply provide the teaching that each individual child need.

Which lead us to the last area, medicine. Here quotas is currently used as a cost saving mechanism, where instead of individual assessment you have screenings and vaccines based on race, gender and age. It is a definitively worse system but since individual assessments are costly and doctors are limited in numbers it is still being used. The idea to give people medical care without medical assessment is at odds with modern practice of not doing harm, and the optimal solution is always to do individual assessments based on personal needs. Quotas is used as a last ditch effort when the benefits clearly outweighs the cost through careful and very conservative considerations. Quotas are dangerous and medical history is full of the harm they have done.

This is why I brought those examples. Each of them operate today on treating people as individuals and while neither system is perfect, adding quotas to them makes things worse rather then better. At best it can be used as a last ditch effort, but only if all other methods have been explored and one recognize the massive potential for harm that it introduce. I understand why it quotas feel attractive but to claim that it is impossible to treat people as individuals is practically giving up on the foundation of modern society.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#99
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right - I should have written more carefully. I strongly disagree with the statement, but you are still a person and the fact that we don't currently agree on this doesn't mean I should insult you. It was bad writing. I did mean to target the statement, not the person. However your questions in this reply, and the idea that I think the "old ways" are better ... I mean that's not in my argument. That's creatin…

We are talking past each other, but with the correct tone maybe we could find if and what we disagree on. Lets apply a quota system to those system above that today operate on individual assessment, using current imbalance that statistical evidence can detect. Banks have data on who defaults on loans based on any number of conceivable categories, and likely incorporate some of that during an assessment. A quota syste…

Your points about these things are right in that you can’t just randomly apply a quota anywhere in the process and expect a good result. Eg the solution to discrimination in the justice system is probably not to put more white people in jail for no reason. But if everybody received the same punishment for the same crime, that would actually happen.

“Blindness” is ideal once people get into the stages of the process where they are being evaluated on an individual level. It should be the goal.

Quotas are not targeted at those problems.

The important piece that a lot of us people seem to miss is that the ongoing effect of historical racism and sexism messes things up and creates unfairness before people even get in the room. Massive unfairness. Compounded in a thousand different ways over somebody’s life. Creating pressure away from one kind of life and towards another simply through historical inertia, because for most of history people like them did not have full rights as human beings.

Quotas seem bad at solving the problems you point out because they are not for that. They are an attempt to measure, and correct for, much bigger trends.

Well-designed quotas at the right places in processes could let the pool of people (who are then evaluated blindly) be a much more representative group. Quotas (or some other measurement) would let you know if some proxies for discrimination were still getting through the process.

Insurance companies my not use race, but a zip code can be a proxy for race, and the kind of neighborhood a person lives in can make them more likely to suffer a break-in or make a claim for some other reason.

I really do believe that it’s impossible to treat people as individuals with 100% certainty that that’s what you are doing. No matter how hard you try. Even in all the examples you gave, there is progress but things are not done.

Hopefully this makes my point more clear.

Re: Diversity quotas suck. Here’s why

#100
post #26

"Diversity" is just overrated completely, as a concept. The highest-performing company in America, Apple, has close to zero race or gender diversity, and if you peel back one layer, it has very little diversity of thought" as well. Why? Because the company was built to execute Steve Jobs' ideas. The more that any given executive could run an emulator of Steve Jobs' brain, the less of Jobs' time he required. "Ideas ar…

Diversity is advertised too much those days, but in reality, it barely matters. The advocates need to further explain why it is good for the team and such. Since many companies, including my own, implementing the diversity initiative by lowering the bar for the diversity candidates, even those that are being turned down at earliest stage, still interestingly, being rescued later. However, even people take issues abou…

Are you joking? All you need to do is search for why is diversity good for business to get the further explanation that you're saying someone should just give to you. I can not believe that you are choosing not to look up the data and instead propagate your feeling- because that's what it is- that diversity is vanity. roll eyes
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