The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy • Hacker News Board

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#121

Post by anon12341234 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:17 PM UTC

rgcapozz wrote: post #28

sushid wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nice for the previous generations that got something out of nothing. Too bad that "nothing" is my generation and we'll be putting our "contributions" into a pit that will give us actually nothing in return when it's time for us to retire. As I get older I realize why people say if you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart but if you are not a conservative by 30, you have no brain (or something to that effect…

As I get older I become more anarchist or socialist or syndicalist.

[dead]

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#122

Post by dunpeal » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #106

dunpeal wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a result infrastructure is poor, toll roads are increasing, privatization of prisons, intelligence gathering, war, etc. are rising too. I wouldn't bundle military expenditure with the rest of public spending. Our military budget currently stands at a staggering $639bn (that's billion) for FY2019. In fact, there's a good argument that if we diverted some of these enormous funds to invest in other areas, those pro…

You could fix infrastructure by slashing the US military down to a reasonable size (~2.5% of GDP), there are no other large problems you can fix with that money. The scale of the entitlement problem, healthcare cost problem, etc. is far beyond anything that $150b-$200b per year will solve long-term. I have no interest in seeing Chicago fix its pension problems by using funding taken from the US military. Chicago made…

> I have no interest in seeing Chicago fix its pension problems by using funding taken from the US military. Chicago made its bed by intentionally, dramatically over-promising, it gets to sleep in that bed.

Taxpayer money should be not be used to fix any of these over-promised pension problems, and certainly federal tax money should not bail out corrupt, irresponsible local governments.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#123

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

chris_mc wrote: post #115

gok wrote: post #53

> It is increasingly likely that retirees, as well as new workers, will be forced to take deeper benefit cuts. Boohoo. Public service union members should have thought about that before pursuing a pyramid scheme retirement plan instead of a defined contribution pension like the rest of us.

Why in the ever loving fuck are you blaming the _workers_ for this shortsightedness instead of the government organizations who are about to fuck those people over when they're 70? Maybe the administrators of the pension accounts and financial planners for these organizations should have done better by the people who are busting their (collective) asses to provide services for you, the taxpayer?

[deleted]

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#124

Post by milesvp » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:21 PM UTC

sykhic wrote: post #33

Overal taxation in the U.S. is low compared to other OECD countries [1]. We, as a nation, decided that low taxes was the goal. As a result infrastructure is poor, toll roads are increasing, privatization of prisons, intelligence gathering, war, etc. are rising too. Yet Americans falsely believe they are overtaxed. The situation is easy to fix in economic terms but not in political terms. The road to an Ayn Randian pa…

I'm not sure how much I trust these tax rates. My understanding was that government spending is roughly 33% of GDP here in the US. This was true when I was in undergrad, and it looks to be roughly correct today. https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/percent_gdp (not sure how much I trust this site, but it corroborates what I learned in undergrad with only a few minutes of googling). This means that the tax rate must be close to 33%. Else you'd have amazing deficits balooning quite quickly.

Maybe it's ignoring corporate taxes? or ignoring other things on our W-2, like L&I and social security/medicare? It 's also probably ignoring local taxes, a 10% sales tax is hard to ignore.

I once calculated my effective marginal tax rate at 45%, and it stopped me from pursuing a higher paying job, since my take home didn't change enough to be worth the higher stress and the money I'd have to spend to combat said stress.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#125

Post by dunpeal » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

chris_mc wrote: post #115

gok wrote: post #53

> It is increasingly likely that retirees, as well as new workers, will be forced to take deeper benefit cuts. Boohoo. Public service union members should have thought about that before pursuing a pyramid scheme retirement plan instead of a defined contribution pension like the rest of us.

Why in the ever loving fuck are you blaming the _workers_ for this shortsightedness instead of the government organizations who are about to fuck those people over when they're 70? Maybe the administrators of the pension accounts and financial planners for these organizations should have done better by the people who are busting their (collective) asses to provide services for you, the taxpayer?

Read sykhic's comments below. These unsustainable sweetheart deals were negotiated by the government employees and their unions.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#126

Post by sykhic » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #120

sykhic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a public employee. I don't cause the government to write its contract with me to be the way it is. It's negotiated between my union and the state Department of Education. It is then voted on by the legislative branch and signed by the governor. It's a long process. At no point am I or my fellow workers the ones making the promises. It costs money to run government. Employees need to be paid. We have had lay offs…

> I don't cause the government to write its contract with me to be the way it is. It's negotiated between my union and the state Department of Education. Exactly. So one group of state government employees (your state's DoE) meets another group of state government employees (your union) and decide to give each other an incredible defined-benefit pension deal that nobody outside of government can even dream of . State…

Pensions are not inherently unsustainable. They exist in the private sector in other countries and there are still some well funded private sector pensions in the U.S. They don't work well if they are not properly funded. Corporations got rid of pensions not because the concept is inherently unsustainable but because it's more profitable to do away with them.

My pension plan is not a good one. You characterization of one group of state employees giving a dream set of benefits to another is not based in reality. Administration does not negotiate strongly with us the contract won't be approved by the legislature or signed by the governor. Our wages relative to buying power has not been going up or remaining steady.

If pensions are inherently unsustainable then you must conclude that it is unsustainable for a society to care for itself.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#127

Post by betterunix2 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #113

betterunix2 wrote: post #9

The choice is raising taxes, reducing spending elsewhere, or demanding workers give up the pensions they were promised. Somehow I doubt anyone is going to agree to pay more in taxes to cover pensions in their state or city. After all, why should the government keep its promises (especially if it means we have to pay for it)?

Does stability in retirement add enough value to society and the economy for it to be a good investment? I've been an adult less than a decade, so without a return why should I pay for the promises of my predecessors? So many questions.

I actually think the answer is simpler and more immediate than that. The government made a promise. If the government does not keep that promise, can it be trusted with other obligations?

In fact, this problem of unfunded pensions has impacted municipal credit ratings and wound up costing taxpayers more in higher interest rates than they would have had to pay in higher taxes to stabilize the pension funds.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#128

Post by analog31 » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:26 PM UTC

ngngngng wrote: post #113

betterunix2 wrote: post #9

The choice is raising taxes, reducing spending elsewhere, or demanding workers give up the pensions they were promised. Somehow I doubt anyone is going to agree to pay more in taxes to cover pensions in their state or city. After all, why should the government keep its promises (especially if it means we have to pay for it)?

Does stability in retirement add enough value to society and the economy for it to be a good investment? I've been an adult less than a decade, so without a return why should I pay for the promises of my predecessors? So many questions.

In my view, yes, for at least a couple of reasons. First, because people survive whether you want them to or not, and driving old people into poverty will end up burdening you in some other way, probably worse. We pay a lot for not having a decent safety net.

Second, old people vote. If you drive a political wedge between the young and old, I can't say what will happen, but it won't involve the young ending up on top.

Third, retirees are a huge consumer group, and also a non-obvious but important source of support for families.

In fact, telling young people that they will see nothing of social security is a propaganda position intended to drive that wedge.

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#129

Post by dunpeal » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:26 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #105

dunpeal wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what would you do with the large number of unemployed people that would result? US demand for labor is at an all time high. They can find employment in the private sector and produce goods and services that benefit others.

But most of the money is spent on research and high tech manufacturing. Those are not easy fields to find private employment for.

Are you kidding me? You are saying in the current market, there's no demand for highly skilled and educated R&D employees?

Re: The Pension Hole for U.S. Cities and States Is the Size of Japan’s Economy

#130

Post by adreamingsoul » Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:27 PM UTC

I can't help but think of my father, who has been a firefighter for the last 20+ years. He lives a comfortable middle class life, and still works even though he already qualifies for retirement.