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‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#21

Post by repsilat »

throwawayanon12 wrote: post #10

Would love to see a concerted movement to arrange a boycott of Harvard by Asian students - having a graduating class without any Asian students would send a very a strong symbolic message.

If they received substantially fewer Asian applicants they would probably adjust the thresholds to keep the balance how they want it. It would be nearly impossible for a boycott to be so effective they could not get a "Harvard-balanced" class, whatever that means.

This lawsuit already sends a pretty strong symbolic message, though (in addition to whatever practical effect it might have.)

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#22

Post by Veelox »

speedplane wrote: post #19

The article says that there are only 1600 spots at Harvard, and of the applicants "3,500 had perfect SAT math scores, 2,700 had perfect SAT verbal scores, and more than 8,000 had straight A’s" (doesn't say how many had all three). Obviously hard objective criteria are not be enough to get into Harvard, and they need to dip into subjectivity which is rife with bias. The only fair solutions are to make the SATs harder…

>Obviously hard objective criteria are not be enough to get into Harvard, and they need to dip into subjectivity which is rife with bias.

I think you are missing the point OP is making. The top 80% of blacks score well on the subjective stuff. Only the top 10% of Asians score that well. With that, there are a few possibilities.

1) Blacks are more interesting than Asians.

2) Personality is uncorrelated with test scores.

3) Harvard is purposely scoring to change the racial split of the class.

Of those, I think 3 is most likely. I am open to discussion but I think Harvard is to smart to be doing it on accident and the racial split is to politically acceptable to be by chance.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#23

Post by speedplane »

I understand the outrage of racial discrimination in this case, but I'm saddened over the lack of outrage over Harvard's self-described "Z-List" students who get into the school solely based on their family's money and power. No one is suing Harvard over the fact that you can buy your way in.

We've come to accept that money and legacy power provides access and opportunity regardless of merit. If that more fundamental problem was solved, many of these others would melt away on their own.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#24

Post by strstr »

speedplane wrote: post #23

I understand the outrage of racial discrimination in this case, but I'm saddened over the lack of outrage over Harvard's self-described "Z-List" students who get into the school solely based on their family's money and power. No one is suing Harvard over the fact that you can buy your way in. We've come to accept that money and legacy power provides access and opportunity regardless of merit. If that more fundamental…

Z-list probably isn't illegal (despite it being pretty disheartening).

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#25

Post by speedplane »

Veelox wrote: post #22
speedplane wrote: post #19

The article says that there are only 1600 spots at Harvard, and of the applicants "3,500 had perfect SAT math scores, 2,700 had perfect SAT verbal scores, and more than 8,000 had straight A’s" (doesn't say how many had all three). Obviously hard objective criteria are not be enough to get into Harvard, and they need to dip into subjectivity which is rife with bias. The only fair solutions are to make the SATs harder…

>Obviously hard objective criteria are not be enough to get into Harvard, and they need to dip into subjectivity which is rife with bias. I think you are missing the point OP is making. The top 80% of blacks score well on the subjective stuff. Only the top 10% of Asians score that well. With that, there are a few possibilities. 1) Blacks are more interesting than Asians. 2) Personality is uncorrelated with test score…

I wish you were right, because if the issue was just a few racist admissions officers, then the solution would be simple: fire them and get non-racist ones, problem solved. However, there is a fourth, more likely explanation:

4) Harvard's scoring is unintentionally hurting Asian students.

From the article, it seems that Harvard focuses on establishing student diversity that roughly tracks the US population, bringing in big money donors, bringing in legacy students, and finding leaders that have traits similar to other successful leaders in the past.

None of these values have the intent to reduce Asian admission, but that is their undeniable effect.

It means that Asian students don't face a single racist admissions officer, they face a facially race-neutral system that has a discriminatory effect. To fix it, you can't just fire a few people, you need to make much larger changes. My original point was that the only fair and effective solution would need to require a larger class size.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#26

Post by kart23 »

throwa_way_ wrote: post #8
kart23 wrote: post #5

College admissions aren't about sat scores anymore. I graduated from high school this year, and know 2 people going to Harvard. It doesn't matter if you get perfect sat scores, it matters about what you do outside of school, and whether you spend all your time studying or actually doing something that will contribute to society. Numbers just aren't enough to admit students by, since if they admitted everyone with per…

Race is a big factor.

It's a factor, but not a big one, and will usually make you have a bigger chance at getting in, but rarely will it decrease your chances. Harvard accepted ~17% Asian people, while the people who are suing them say it should be closer to 40%, like the UC system, which is race blind. They dont consider that more asians live in California, and thus more apply to the UCs. Yes, being black, Hispanic, or native American can often give you a boost in the admissions process, but I think it's a good thing, colleges are trying to correct how tough it was historically for certain ethnic groups. I would say that college admissions are for the most part pretty fair. Of course theres a couple kids who get in because of donors, connections, etc., but these are very small minorities.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#27

Post by speedplane »

strstr wrote: post #24
speedplane wrote: post #23

I understand the outrage of racial discrimination in this case, but I'm saddened over the lack of outrage over Harvard's self-described "Z-List" students who get into the school solely based on their family's money and power. No one is suing Harvard over the fact that you can buy your way in. We've come to accept that money and legacy power provides access and opportunity regardless of merit. If that more fundamental…

Z-list probably isn't illegal (despite it being pretty disheartening).

Of course it isn't illegal. Folks with money and power create the rules, and obviously one of the first rules you'd make is that those with money and power can use that money and power to get what they want. But just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right or it should be.

And you could potentially make a case that it's illegal, even though it's flimsy and you'd probably would lose. Harvard makes all sorts of claims that they pick the best and the brightest based on merit. That's false advertising, and potentially even fraud. I could see a Harvard grad suing the school for admitting Z-List students because it waters down the prestige of their degree. Again, they'd almost certainly lose, but my point is that there are existing legal hooks into this bad behavior.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#28

Post by Veelox »

speedplane wrote: post #25
Veelox wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously hard objective criteria are not be enough to get into Harvard, and they need to dip into subjectivity which is rife with bias. I think you are missing the point OP is making. The top 80% of blacks score well on the subjective stuff. Only the top 10% of Asians score that well. With that, there are a few possibilities. 1) Blacks are more interesting than Asians. 2) Personality is uncorrelated with test score…

I wish you were right, because if the issue was just a few racist admissions officers, then the solution would be simple: fire them and get non-racist ones, problem solved. However, there is a fourth, more likely explanation: 4) Harvard's scoring is unintentionally hurting Asian students. From the article, it seems that Harvard focuses on establishing student diversity that roughly tracks the US population, bringing…

>4) Harvard's scoring is unintentionally hurting Asian students.

It's Harvard we are taking about, not a community college. Someone in admissions knew it was happening and let it keep happening. If you are willing to say unintentional means knew it was happening and didn't care to stop it, sure it was unintentional. The issue I have with that is if the same thing was happening but you replaced Asian with African, people would be up in arms. Such a double standard offends my sense of equality.

Re: ‘Lopping,’ ‘Tips’ and the ‘Z-List’: Bias Lawsuit Explores Harvard’s Admissions

#29

Post by dang »

Veelox wrote: post #20

I think the part of the issue that bothers me most is how much of a double standard there is between what counts as racism against African Americans and rasism against Asian Americans. Objectively, if you have two identical applications to Harvard except one is labeled black and the other is labeled Asian, the black one has a higher chance of success. They do the same thing with fake job applications with white names…

Mods didn't. Users flagged it.
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