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Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

daiyi.co

111–120 of 205 posts

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#111
post #54

Where are these horrible places that people work and hang out? I’ve worked at places as small as a tiny ISP where I was basically the only tech employee, startups with a dozen employees to companies as large as HP and everything in between. I’ve worked on the east coast and west coast. I’ve worked for private companies and public ones. Ive been on small teams and large. Ive had dozens of managers. I’ve been an SA and…

You've either been lucky or oblivious. My experience with office people has been that any minuscule thing that can be used to alpha-dog somebody, will be used to alpha-dog somebody.

I suspect it's because the mothership goes out of its way to keep them in a constant state of anxiety and confusion--open offices, stack ranking, endless meetings, etc...

It is easier to assert your dominance over them when they are at each others' throats.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#112
post #3

> when I told other software people I’m a web developer, I got treated like shit. I was a lower class of coder because I wasn’t “solving cool problems” because making web sites is easy. Of all the stupid arrogant awfulness in tech that has crossed my path this one is definitely high on the list of the most baffling. Web dev is the hardest and most intimidating dev work I've ever done, by a country mile. (Whether that…

The problem is that you're both right. Putting up a simple web site that does something basic, that you then walk away from is easy, and is what a lot of people who call themselves web developers do. Building something like Gmail or Facebook OTOH are endeavors only slightly below the moon landing in complexity and “solving cool problems”. And it is equally legitimately "web development"...

I would imagine some of the problems people have with web developers is this inflated sense of ... something. Comparing GMail with the moon landing is hilariously out of touch. If you hear these sorts of statements enough times it's easy to associate most web developers with delusions of grandeur.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#113
post #88
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never talked to a recruiter with any technical expertise in my whole 12 year career.

https://i.redd.it/bka1gb843z7z.jpg

It's really sad, because I get called by 2 of them a week :/

Their websites sound like they are the pinnacle of the industry, but on phone/email they sound like a bunch of HS dropouts :(

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get hung up on the language. People sometimes say "statistically speaking" to mean "Based on my experience over a large number of tests". It doesn't mean "I applied a test of statistical significance to arrive at my conclusion". You're then meant to combine their stated experience with their stated credentials and your assessment of their trustworthiness to arrive at some conclusion. This imprecision may annoy…

Sure, I understand what you're saying. But I'll continue to challenge the use of language like that. In my opinion, saying something is true "statistically speaking" is more grievous than saying something like, "I'm 99% sure." Both are artifacts of the English language, but I think the former carries much more quantification behind it, implicitly speaking. In that sense it's not just about informal use of language. T…

I hear you. I removed the wording "statistically speaking" from the initial comment.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#115
post #3

> when I told other software people I’m a web developer, I got treated like shit. I was a lower class of coder because I wasn’t “solving cool problems” because making web sites is easy. Of all the stupid arrogant awfulness in tech that has crossed my path this one is definitely high on the list of the most baffling. Web dev is the hardest and most intimidating dev work I've ever done, by a country mile. (Whether that…

The problem is that you're both right. Putting up a simple web site that does something basic, that you then walk away from is easy, and is what a lot of people who call themselves web developers do. Building something like Gmail or Facebook OTOH are endeavors only slightly below the moon landing in complexity and “solving cool problems”. And it is equally legitimately "web development"...

Excepting the moon landing comparison which has already been thoroughly decried, this post is spot on. The phenomenon really shows the importance of connotations, associations, and learning to present yourself effectively.

My personal experience has been that the label "web developer" is typically used by less experienced people if only because after a little while in the industry, even if your focus is primarily web-related, you start to develop skills that are more widely applicable and don't want to be "pigeonholed". It doesn't have anything to do with the difficulty of the problem set, the quality of the ecosystem, or any other specific value judgment.

It's the difference between a package delivery service characterizing their employees as "box movers" v. "logistics coordinators".

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you're both right. Putting up a simple web site that does something basic, that you then walk away from is easy, and is what a lot of people who call themselves web developers do. Building something like Gmail or Facebook OTOH are endeavors only slightly below the moon landing in complexity and “solving cool problems”. And it is equally legitimately "web development"...

I am not sure I would class either of Gmail or Facebook with the Apollo Program in terms of headcount (est. 400k), total cost (estimates from $100-200 Bn), complexity (hundreds of contractors, millions of moving parts, dozens of directly-operated sites, thousands of projects), or novelty (landing on the fricking moon ).

If rockets were built like software ... (insert joke)

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#117

As someone running a technical recruitment agency, I can assure you that it is true that someone having built stuff in Clojure is more likely to be considered as a good engineer than someone who did JQuery all the time. Recruiters use an intuitive approach to conditional probability. Given only the info alone (if someone did JQuery or Clojure) exposes you to two bell curves, with the X-axis being "programming ability…

I have decades of experience hiring people, and what I find is this:

If I randomly select a programmer from all the programmers who write Clojure, working or not, interviewing or not, they are likely to be a “better” programmer than if I randomly select a programmer from all the programmers who write JavaScript, working or not, interviewing or not.

But of course, that’s not what happens when I interview. I meet one person in the morning with three years experience working on projects of types A, B, and C. In the afternoon I meet another with four years of experience working on projects of types B, C, and D.

If one has Clojure and the other JavaScript, I’m much more likely to be delighted to discuss Clojure than JavaScript, but as far as HIRE/NO HIRE is concened, the thing that matters to me are projects Of type A, B, C, or D, and the candidate’s role/contribution.

If the JavaScript programmer’s experience is solid, I do not want a recruiter in-house or otherwise trying to save me an interview and filtering them out.

The bottom line is, there are like 100x as many JS folks as CJ folks. So let’s say there are 100 great CJ people out of 1,000 CJ people. 10% ham!

But that means there are 100,000 JS people. If even 1% of them are great, that means that there are 1,000 great JS people out there, and I do not want to pass on meeting any of them just because there are also 99,000 not-so-great JS people out there.

In my imaginary distribution, a random CJ person is 10x more likely to be good. But there are 10x as many good JS people as CJ people, and my experience is that THEIR experience is a far better signal than their programming language.

—-

p.s. I am competing with people who only want to hire programmers with shiny signals like ClojureScript or the ability to quote “JavaScript Allongé.” Good! Let them ignore the 1,000 good JS people, easier for me to interview them and make a successful offer.

Now that I think about it, please ignore what I just said. Only interview people who build systems out of Lisp, Prolog, and Maleboge.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#118
I think everybody who writes HTML, CSS and JS for a living experiences this. For me it's the never ending jokes about "JS was written in 9 days" and remarks on how easy it is to fix a problem, because "it's just CSS". I compare it too subtle discrimination. I am a white male and I won't pretend to know how it feels to be discriminated, but I do know how it feels too fight the uphill battle of condescending remarks. And I also play my part. I downplay what I do ("I build websites"), because I don't want to hear myself pounding my chest.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#119

I think everybody who writes HTML, CSS and JS for a living experiences this. For me it's the never ending jokes about "JS was written in 9 days" and remarks on how easy it is to fix a problem, because "it's just CSS". I compare it too subtle discrimination. I am a white male and I won't pretend to know how it feels to be discriminated, but I do know how it feels too fight the uphill battle of condescending remarks. A…

Javascript being sub optimal makes what you do harder, which implies you are smarter. You aren't being made fun of, the language is.

And CSS is harder than programming!

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#120
The deeper tech you know the more underground and probably experienced you are. The more languages you know, you are probably better in all of them because knowing multiple languages is better to see core parts like standards, systems and patterns. If you know a functional programming language that also probably means you have more experience in the deeper end, doesn't mean you are better but you have been around and devs that have been around probably are better.

It is the same with any subject, music and movies also has this, the more underground music/movies and more original/classic movies you have seen the more you appear to know. It is snobby but it is a signal that you probabilistically are more experienced.

Even the OP posted how he came into programming with javascript and webdev, then tried Clojure and went into SICP. The latter two aren't gateway languages/areas. The gateway languages are javascript, java, C, C++, .NET, Ruby maybe Python now are usually the first languages people know, learning Clojure meant it was at least your second language, rarely do people start with Clojure, so it signals you have gone deeper in knowledge and have somewhat leveled-up even though day to day you seem the same self.

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