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Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

daiyi.co

31–40 of 205 posts

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#31

Often when people perceive signalling it is a confirmation bias -- they feel something and think it exists in the behaviors of others. e.g. I'm doing something I think is cool, therefore positive interactions are because of it. I'm insecure therefore everyone is dismissive of me. Having said that, I don't know what timeframe this person is referring to but web development went from extraordinarily hackish and ill con…

Rewriting your frontend every six months using the current trend isn't my idea of disciplined.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#32
This type of signaling is very real and present in functional programming languages specifically. Java programmers feel insecure because they're not writing Scala, the Scala people wish they were as functional as the Haskell people, the Haskell people wish they were as advanced as the academic Idris people.

It's a never ending comparison contest. And despite functional programming having an objectively higher barrier to entry, it is entirely possible to write absolute garbage code in an FP language as well.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#33
post #3

> when I told other software people I’m a web developer, I got treated like shit. I was a lower class of coder because I wasn’t “solving cool problems” because making web sites is easy. Of all the stupid arrogant awfulness in tech that has crossed my path this one is definitely high on the list of the most baffling. Web dev is the hardest and most intimidating dev work I've ever done, by a country mile. (Whether that…

The problem is that you're both right.

Putting up a simple web site that does something basic, that you then walk away from is easy, and is what a lot of people who call themselves web developers do.

Building something like Gmail or Facebook OTOH are endeavors only slightly below the moon landing in complexity and “solving cool problems”.

And it is equally legitimately "web development"...

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone running a technical recruitment agency, I can assure you that - statistically speaking - it is true that someone having built stuff in Clojure is more likely to be a good engineer than someone who did JQuery all the time. Would you care to share those statistics? While we're at it let's also be sure to define "good engineer."

He just said it was holistic.

The commenter said "statistically speaking" to justify part of their point. I am directly challenging their assertion and requesting evidence that they have 1) actually quantified something in more than a hand wavey manner, and 2) found the (falsifiable) conclusion they stated, based on that analysis.

I'm deeply skeptical. People like to throw around percentages and references to statistics to justify their biases, but I don't think the commenter has done nearly enough to motivate the conclusion that the modal Clojure developer is more likely to be a "good engineer" than the modal JavaScript developer.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#35
post #3

> when I told other software people I’m a web developer, I got treated like shit. I was a lower class of coder because I wasn’t “solving cool problems” because making web sites is easy. Of all the stupid arrogant awfulness in tech that has crossed my path this one is definitely high on the list of the most baffling. Web dev is the hardest and most intimidating dev work I've ever done, by a country mile. (Whether that…

The inflated sense of ego associated with “saving the world” and “solving tough problems” has almost completely turned me off from tech, in the Bay Area in particular. My problem isn’t with the sentiment—it’s that 99 out of 100 times it’s pure bullshit. There are a few people out their doing really amazing things, but the vast majority of people who have big egos aren’t the people working on that stuff.

Tech is the new Wall Street in a lot of ways. But instead of being honest about where the paycheck comes from we gloss it up so it’s less morally reprehensible. I actually have more respect for people on Wall Street these days. At least they are honest with themselves about the game. I think I have more respect for Jordan Belfort and Lou Pai then the exec teams af Facebook and Uber.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#36

As someone running a technical recruitment agency, I can assure you that it is true that someone having built stuff in Clojure is more likely to be considered as a good engineer than someone who did JQuery all the time. Recruiters use an intuitive approach to conditional probability. Given only the info alone (if someone did JQuery or Clojure) exposes you to two bell curves, with the X-axis being "programming ability…

Yep. Funny that HackerNews seem to be unable to wrap their head around the fact that prejudice is just applied Bayesian statistics.

I'm gonna say prejudice is actually not applied Bayesian statistics

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone running a technical recruitment agency, I can assure you that - statistically speaking - it is true that someone having built stuff in Clojure is more likely to be a good engineer than someone who did JQuery all the time. Would you care to share those statistics? While we're at it let's also be sure to define "good engineer."

Experience looking at thousands of CVs and talking to people who are behind the CVs.

That's not a statistic, nor is it quantifiable. I'm not taking issue with your experience, I'm taking issue with the fact that you've implied your claim has quantitative rigor to it, because I'm extremely skeptical that's the case.

For what it's worth, I'm challenging you as someone who is neither a JavaScript developer nor a Clojure developer. I'm of the opinion that biases like the one the author laments are perpetuated (in part) by this leaky arguments from "statistics" that never appear.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#38
post #21
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention; web developers are constantly having to context switch between HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Old school days they also had a backend language like PHP or Perl. Many still do. Then there was/is SQL. By my count, that's at least five different languages to know all at once.

“Look at how many plates I can juggle at once!” “Aren’t you just trying to walk to the store?” “Look! I added a fifth! Everyone do this now!”

I don't understand your analogy. What is walking to the store without juggling any plates in web development? I'm not aware of any stack that allows you to write styles, markup, business logic, and database queries in a single language.

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#39
post #3

> when I told other software people I’m a web developer, I got treated like shit. I was a lower class of coder because I wasn’t “solving cool problems” because making web sites is easy. Of all the stupid arrogant awfulness in tech that has crossed my path this one is definitely high on the list of the most baffling. Web dev is the hardest and most intimidating dev work I've ever done, by a country mile. (Whether that…

As someone at the "other extreme" end from web developers, and having briefly done some "real web dev" myself, I can easily see why it's so loathed. There are immense amounts of churn. The continuing "appification" and bloating of websites with user and privacy-hostile crap. Reinventing ever-more-complex solutions to non-existent problems (remember the left-pad debacle?) Dogmatic cargo-cult thinking. Sadly, it's rare that a website "redesign" is an actual improvement instead of pure fashion-chasing.

(Whether that complexity is 'justified' is an entirely different discussion that, while no doubt interesting, has nothing to do with this person's post)

IMHO that has everything to do with it. It's hard to have any other opinion of web developers when you constantly see the large amounts of unnecessary complexity they foist upon everyone else. As I said, I worked in that space briefly, with others who had severe "framework envy", and largely see this complexity as being self-inflicted --- in some ways it was like Enterprise Java (another thing I did for a similarly brief time), except with much more churn. On more than one occasion I've had to clean up the mess they made by rewriting large web apps with simpler means, and the result was better by every metric (speed, memory, lines of code, etc.) except perhaps fashionability and job security.

I mentioned to some people I was learning clojure. Everyone was super into this. People started telling me I was really cool.

The author of this article must certainly not be in the same "tech bubble" I'm in, where telling someone you're interested in Clojure is going to be met more with neutral "what?" and "why?" reactions. However, I certainly agree with the title of the article: "signaling in tech is some fucked up shit".

Re: Signaling in tech is some fucked up shit (2016)

#40
post #13

I think the negative comments on webdev come from the php era where websites were not much more than information portals. Nowadays webdev is more about web apps, considerably harder to create and maintain. In addition the usage expanded so scale became a thing. Over time it is more that the apps traditionally seen as "true programming" moved to the web but the stigma is only starting to fade. On the writing style; ho…

The writing style is a stylistic choice. I like it
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