Live data from Hacker News

Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

medium.com

11–20 of 24 posts

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#11
That was a great read, thanks to the author for making sense of entangled history between decentralization and file sharing.

I don't see why they seem to conclude that decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law, though : it's not because it happened like that in the past that it can only happen like that in the future.

The author is noticing that privacy is a big concern nowadays, but is somehow discarding quickly that remark. I see it as fundamental. Nowadays, privacy is not just a theme for activists or weirdos whom most people think "they're going too far". Nowadays, my aunt and my grand mother speak out privacy concerns about facebook (ironically, on facebook). There is also in the general public mind this vague idea that we're allowing a few companies to be stronger than governments (and thus, than democracies) and that they now own internet.

All of this is very fertile ground for decentralization, we'll see if that ground expands or shrinks, but this is clearly not about working around the law.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IPFS [1] is close to this. Websites (and all other resources) are P2P hosted with a distributed hash table. For example, there's an reasonably uncensorable Wikipedia mirror [2]. I don't know what the state of web apps on IPFS is, but believe some people are working toward a pubsub-based system. [1] https://ipfs.io/ [2] https://ipfs.io/blog/24-uncensorable-wikipedia/

Decentralized web apps already exist, built with our tool ( https://github.com/amark/gun ). For instance: - Decentralized Reddit ( https://notabug.io/ ) can push terabytes of daily P2P traffic. - Decentralized YouTube ( https://d.tube/ ) gets millions of uniques every month, built with IPFS/Steem/GUN (upcoming release will have end-to-end encrypted private messaging). There are plenty of other dApps being built. This…

How is GUN related to dApps? The server seems like a regular daemon running on a regular machine.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IPFS [1] is close to this. Websites (and all other resources) are P2P hosted with a distributed hash table. For example, there's an reasonably uncensorable Wikipedia mirror [2]. I don't know what the state of web apps on IPFS is, but believe some people are working toward a pubsub-based system. [1] https://ipfs.io/ [2] https://ipfs.io/blog/24-uncensorable-wikipedia/

Decentralized web apps already exist, built with our tool ( https://github.com/amark/gun ). For instance: - Decentralized Reddit ( https://notabug.io/ ) can push terabytes of daily P2P traffic. - Decentralized YouTube ( https://d.tube/ ) gets millions of uniques every month, built with IPFS/Steem/GUN (upcoming release will have end-to-end encrypted private messaging). There are plenty of other dApps being built. This…

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't these only partially decentralized?

While GUN seems to be a p2p system, both those applications are single points of failure due to each being hosted on a single domain. Are there additional ways to access the same content?

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#14
post #7

I feel like the next frontier for decentralisation is the need for decentralised websites. If a website just contains read-only static text then it can perhaps be replaced by a PDF shared over bittorrent, but I don't think there's yet a very good technology that can be built into mainstream web browsers and that allows complex web apps to run (including functionality like searching and posting comments) in a domain-a…

You might want to check out https://beakerbrowser.com

It is p2p and built on top of the Dat protocol (datproject.org)

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#15
This got me thinking about Mastodon, Peertube, etc. These are decentralised services for sharing content. Their user-base mainly favours them, iiuc, because the operators of centralised services were being too heavy-handed in their restrictions on content - not just legal but objectionable in various other ways (eg. adult content, instructions on making explosives, or fair-use of copyrighted material).

The article suggests that in each step we'd expect a decentralised solution to make the smallest possible change, and indeed we do: All these services work by decentralising the operator. Every mastodon instance is able to censor itself, or its own view of the other instances, but when this kind of failure occurs users can easily find another instance that is more accommodating.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#16

That was a great read, thanks to the author for making sense of entangled history between decentralization and file sharing. I don't see why they seem to conclude that decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law, though : it's not because it happened like that in the past that it can only happen like that in the future. The author is noticing that privacy is a big concern nowadays, but is somehow discarding…

I think the author generalizes too much from one example re: decentralization existing to work around the law.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#17
post #16

That was a great read, thanks to the author for making sense of entangled history between decentralization and file sharing. I don't see why they seem to conclude that decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law, though : it's not because it happened like that in the past that it can only happen like that in the future. The author is noticing that privacy is a big concern nowadays, but is somehow discarding…

I think the author generalizes too much from one example re: decentralization existing to work around the law.

Author here. I'm mainly writing about decentralization that is supposed to be mainstream while also looking for historical examples. With that in mind, I've looked at:

- Dozens of file sharing apps and their protocols (focus on Napster, Gnutella, FastTrack, and BitTorrent) - Tor, I2P - Tor hidden services - Original p2p Skype

If we generalize "decentralization" into "creative uses of distributed systems and/or cryptography for the sake of privacy and resilience" then we can include a bit more:

- PGP - Willfully blind centralized systems like mega.nz

Then finally if I dip into older attempts that IMO didn't get real adoption, we can include some other interesting examples:

- Freenet - Tribler - Mojonation

There are systems like Diaspora and Mastodon, but they're too close to the present IMO to use as historical examples. There are also obviously decentralized/distributed systems that serve as the backbone of the internet and I do want to allocate more time to learning these deeper, but they don't feel the same.

---

Anyways, I'm not even really disagreeing with you but mainly trying to point out that I'm trying to draw from as much as possible. The original Skype stands out as a case where it seems to have no relationship with the law (https://twitter.com/backus/status/1014726515592818688).

If you have examples (failed or successful) that you recommend looking into, I'm all ears. As I've pointed out in a few other places, my point regarding the law isn't to say that this is all decentralization will ever be for. Instead, I'm saying this seems like the main point in the past for mainstream applications. Maybe decentralized apps will work as well as centralized apps in the future, but it seems like this might be far enough out that it would be incredibly risky for a startup to decentralize today when it doesn't need to.

I could say more, but this is already a lot. Thanks for reading my article!

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#18

That was a great read, thanks to the author for making sense of entangled history between decentralization and file sharing. I don't see why they seem to conclude that decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law, though : it's not because it happened like that in the past that it can only happen like that in the future. The author is noticing that privacy is a big concern nowadays, but is somehow discarding…

Author here, thanks for reading!

Regarding "decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law", I don't think that in the long term (>5 years out). I touched on this a bit in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17641098

Regarding privacy, I'm with you there, but I'm very skeptical that very fuzzy privacy concerns can switch enough people away centralized systems with network effects (FB, Twitter, Reddit, YouTube). I think these systems will see adoption from a few groups:

- Privacy advocates and people otherwise interested in the tech by itself - Ostracized groups. For example, see how Voat (not a decentralized system, but an example of a Reddit clone with a ideological mission) wound up as a hub for the alt-right. - The most extreme people trying to boycott platforms like Twitter. For example, people demanding way more censorship from Twitter that are trying to make Mastodon happen because it has content warning stuff and other anti-harassment stuff from what I've heard - Communities that are forced out by the law, like r/DarknetMarkets moving to Dread: https://medium.com/@jbackus/minimum-viable-decentralization-...

So, subcommunities definitely will exit I think but whether they go to other centralized systems depends on UX (which is harder with decentralization) unless a legal reason makes decentralization the only option.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#19
post #18

That was a great read, thanks to the author for making sense of entangled history between decentralization and file sharing. I don't see why they seem to conclude that decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law, though : it's not because it happened like that in the past that it can only happen like that in the future. The author is noticing that privacy is a big concern nowadays, but is somehow discarding…

Author here, thanks for reading! Regarding "decentralization can only exist to circumvent the law", I don't think that in the long term (>5 years out). I touched on this a bit in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17641098 Regarding privacy, I'm with you there, but I'm very skeptical that very fuzzy privacy concerns can switch enough people away centralized systems with network effects (FB, Twitter…

Hi, thanks for reply.

I see your point ; I think there is actual and genuine interest in privacy and decentralization from what I see within my friends circle, but I may be biased because I'm active around ssb myself (and my friends may very well be interested in this because ... I'm interested in it). Time will tell :)

Regarding incentive for legal reasons, there's an other possible one that may happen (mentioning it for exhaustivity). Yesterday, I was reading an article about how an extreme-right candidate was favorite in brasilian elections. I was thinking : "oh look, an other fascist about to seize power". It feels like it's been a recurring theme this decade. And this is terrifying : could you imagine what the gestapo would have been with access to facebook data?

It doesn't even need the entire world to go mad before the incentive for privacy becomes very strong, 10 or 20 countries with strong engineers would be enough to kickstart it.

Re: Resistant protocols: How decentralization evolves

#20
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decentralized web apps already exist, built with our tool ( https://github.com/amark/gun ). For instance: - Decentralized Reddit ( https://notabug.io/ ) can push terabytes of daily P2P traffic. - Decentralized YouTube ( https://d.tube/ ) gets millions of uniques every month, built with IPFS/Steem/GUN (upcoming release will have end-to-end encrypted private messaging). There are plenty of other dApps being built. This…

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't these only partially decentralized? While GUN seems to be a p2p system, both those applications are single points of failure due to each being hosted on a single domain. Are there additional ways to access the same content?

Both those apps have multiple other peers running it, they're also open source so you can run one, AND the browsers also contribute storing/serving data!

What we'd like to see next: Browsers natively supporting more P2P tooling. WebRTC still kinda sucks. :/

Post reply on HN