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Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

lesswrong.com

11–20 of 268 posts

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#11
From the article:

>The consensus stresses that melatonin is a very weak hypnotic. The Buscemi meta-analysis cites this as their reason for declaring negative results despite a statistically significant effect – the supplement only made people get to sleep about ten minutes faster. “Ten minutes” sounds pretty pathetic, but we need to think of this in context. Even the strongest sleep medications, like Ambien, only show up in studies as getting you to sleep ten or twenty minutes faster; this New York Times article says that “viewed as a group, [newer sleeping pills like Ambien, Lunesta, and Sonata] reduced the average time to go to sleep 12.8 minutes compared with fake pills, and increased total sleep time 11.4 minutes.” I don’t know of any statistically-principled comparison between melatonin and Ambien, but the difference is hardly (pun not intended) day and night.

>Rather than say “melatonin is crap”, I would argue that all sleeping pills have measurable effects that vastly underperform their subjective effects. The linked article speculates on one reason this might be: people have low awareness around the time they get to sleep, and a lot of people’s perception of whether they’re insomniac or not is more anxiety (or sometimes literally dream) than reality. This is possible, but I also think of this in terms of antidepressant studies, which find similarly weak objective effects despite patients (and doctors) who swear by them and say they changed their lives. If I had to guess, I would say that the studies include an awkward combination of sick and less-sick people and confuse responders and non-responders. Maybe this is special pleading. I don’t know. But if you think any sleeping pill works well, melatonin doesn’t necessarily work much worse than that.

The evidence says that it's a very weak hypnotic. The writer then makes a long, pseudoscientific argument against the evidence, while making a claim that their article is scientific, even though it wasn't peer reviewed. They make a cherry-picked comparison to Ambien, Lunesta and Sonata based on an article by non-scientific newspaper New York Times to bolster their claims; they ignore the ability of other, more potent hypnotics to improve time to sleep and sleep length in mental illness-caused insomnia -- on whom melatonin may be ineffective -- and in people with different causes for their sleep disorders.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the other flaws in the article.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#12
post #7

If you regularly buy Melatonin, I highly recommend Trader Joes Brand chewable Melatonin tablets. In my area they cost $2.99 for a bottle, far below the cost of other brands, and the dosage per tablet is 0.5mg or 500mcg which for me is pretty optimal. EDIT: corrected units.

>0.5g or 500mcg I hope you mean 0.5 mg not 0.5g because that would be a very big dose!

I think he did mean .5mg since 500ug is .5mg. Still, I'm a bit confused. The bottles I get come in doses of 10mg, I can't imagine taking even just two or three of them in a single night! On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little. After reading this relevant paraphrase from the article:

> There have been few studies on sighted young people. One finds that 1 mg works but 0.3 mg doesn’t; this study is an outlier. Another study on 25yo found both to work equally. Another study on 22-24yo found that 0.3 mg worked better than 1.0. UpToDate and Mayo Clinic suggests using at most .5mg. John Hopkins’ experts almost agree: they say “less is more” but recommend 1-3 mg.

I wonder if I should actually start cutting my pills in 20ths now... The author goes on to say he personally thinks that .3mg is a good amount and anything beyond 1mg is too much.

Edit: Sorry for the edits, I read the article after I made my comment, then figured I'd share their answer since I asked the question myself.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#13
post #8

Every single person here, if your serious about diving into the science of sleep, should read Matthew Walker's book: Why We Sleep: https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501... His interview on Joe Rogan is a good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig He covers everything from why we sleep (obv), naps, melatonin, etc. I've just finished it and really enjoyed it.

Seconding this. His data on agents of sleep disruption/degradation of sleep quality were eye-opening.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#14
I used to suffer terrible sleep until recently. Always exhausted in the morning. Sore all over. Missed meetings, or called in sick some days. Would wake up around 11 if I could

Now I can wake up around 630 am, lift weights, do HIIT, and be early to work

Melatonin wakes me up in the middle of the night. I take Unisom (Doxylamine) as well. Works pretty well in combination

I have blackout curtains but I need some light to wake me up in the am, so I leave them open about six inches on one side

I eat a small organic meal for dinner, early as I can, usually by 630

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>0.5g or 500mcg I hope you mean 0.5 mg not 0.5g because that would be a very big dose!

I think he did mean .5mg since 500ug is .5mg. Still, I'm a bit confused. The bottles I get come in doses of 10mg, I can't imagine taking even just two or three of them in a single night! On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little. After reading this relevant paraphrase from the article: > There have been few studies on sighted young people. One finds that 1 mg works but 0.3 mg doesn…

> On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little.

That's one of the key points of the article:

> “But my local drugstore sells 10 mg pills! When I asked if they had anything lower, they looked through their stockroom and were eventually able to find 3 mg pills! And you’re saying the correct dose is a third of a milligram?!”

> Yes. Most existing melatonin tablets are around ten to thirty times the correct dose.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#16
post #8

Every single person here, if your serious about diving into the science of sleep, should read Matthew Walker's book: Why We Sleep: https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501... His interview on Joe Rogan is a good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig He covers everything from why we sleep (obv), naps, melatonin, etc. I've just finished it and really enjoyed it.

Joe Rogan is one of the biggest propagators of pseudoscience. It's not a good sign when a guest appears on his show. Joe usually tries to rope them into talking about his two favorite health topics: cholesterol and testosterone.

Re: Melatonin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>0.5g or 500mcg I hope you mean 0.5 mg not 0.5g because that would be a very big dose!

I think he did mean .5mg since 500ug is .5mg. Still, I'm a bit confused. The bottles I get come in doses of 10mg, I can't imagine taking even just two or three of them in a single night! On the other hand, I'd think 1/20th of my pill (.5mg) would be way too little. After reading this relevant paraphrase from the article: > There have been few studies on sighted young people. One finds that 1 mg works but 0.3 mg doesn…

It is strange. I take the Trader Joe’s brand as well and even half of a 500mcg pill is enough for me, and sometimes feels as effective as a a 3mg of 5mg pill from a different brand. Not sure what to make of it, other than maybe all I need is a placebo.
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