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Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

nytimes.com

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Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#71

Post by sverige »

alexforster wrote: post #68
sverige wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said my defensive stance on this "probably" hindered the careers of "some" of them. I never said I intentionally hindered the careers of any of them. When facing a choice of going above and beyond to help develop a female employee's career and risking my own career (and my family's well-being) by exposing myself to the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment, I have chosen selfishly. (He…

> the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment Right there - that's the sexist part. Do you believe there's an epidemic of vengeful women running around falsely accusing men of sexual harassment? Because there isn't - but I'd love to hear your stories.

Accusations of sexual harassment are commonplace at many work places. False accusations are disturbingly common. Don't ask me if you don't believe me -- it's obvious already that you don't anyway.

Rather, go make friends with someone who works in HR at a large company that employs lots of men and women. For this experiment, best not to try to befriend someone at your workplace. They may be hesitant to speak freely, since it could come back on them. HR people are nothing if not close-mouthed. At least the ones who last long enough to have good stories.

But lest you accuse me of dodging the question, I'll say that my personal favorite story is the woman who accused me of sexual harassment because I refused to remove a bad quality score from her record. (This was a call center, quality scores were only removed in very narrow circumstances.) She was three levels below me on the org chart.

I spoke to her exactly twice, in public, with several witnesses. She asked me to remove the score. I went back to my office, reviewed the call, and went back to let her know the score would not be removed. I was the final authority in any appeal of quality scores.

A week later I was informed by HR that she had accused me of sexual harassment. It turns out that she also contacted the FBI about me. Not even kidding.

But you might think that was a good idea. Hell, I might be a Russian bot sowing discord to affect the midterm elections and hasten the decline of America. I mean, I don't meet alone with women! Clearly that's un-American!

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#72

Post by skookumchuck »

tptacek wrote: post #56
skookumchuck wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They view it as an imposition. Are you arguing that women would never want a relationship with someone they met at work?

He's arguing what he said he's arguing: that women he's talked to or heard about view being asked out on dates by coworkers as an imposition. I've heard exactly the same thing.

Do people ever like being asked out by people they are not attracted to? Isn't that always an imposition, regardless of the venue?

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#73

Post by [deleted] »

sverige wrote: post #71
alexforster wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment Right there - that's the sexist part. Do you believe there's an epidemic of vengeful women running around falsely accusing men of sexual harassment? Because there isn't - but I'd love to hear your stories.

Accusations of sexual harassment are commonplace at many work places. False accusations are disturbingly common. Don't ask me if you don't believe me -- it's obvious already that you don't anyway. Rather, go make friends with someone who works in HR at a large company that employs lots of men and women. For this experiment, best not to try to befriend someone at your workplace. They may be hesitant to speak freely, s…

[deleted]

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#74

Post by harryh »

sverige wrote: post #71
alexforster wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the very real and well-known risk of being accused of sexual harassment Right there - that's the sexist part. Do you believe there's an epidemic of vengeful women running around falsely accusing men of sexual harassment? Because there isn't - but I'd love to hear your stories.

Accusations of sexual harassment are commonplace at many work places. False accusations are disturbingly common. Don't ask me if you don't believe me -- it's obvious already that you don't anyway. Rather, go make friends with someone who works in HR at a large company that employs lots of men and women. For this experiment, best not to try to befriend someone at your workplace. They may be hesitant to speak freely, s…

If you are intentionally treating men and women differently in a way that "probably hindered the careers of some of the women who were my direct and indirect reports" then it's not only un-American but it's also illegal discrimination.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#75

Post by cycrutchfield »

skookumchuck wrote: post #49
rayiner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we're living in is the vindication of Andrea Dworkin's views about the sexual revolution: https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/how-the-se... . Women are renegotiating the rules in a way that isn't so one-sidedly beneficial to men. Part of that is putting constraints on when and where sexual propositioning is appropriate (and it's not appropriate in the workplace).

Outlawing normal human behavior has never worked in the past, and it's unlikely to start working now. Office hookups are going to keep happening. Regulations against soldiers fraternizing with the locals all failed. Laws against interracial relationships never worked. Laws against homosexual relationships didn't stop it. Prostitution continues unabated. Adultery is so commonplace it is hardly worth mentioning.

Why are you making this about laws? This is about people that are employed voluntarily needing to follow certain rules of conduct for their continued employment.

This is not about some constitutional right to fuck your subordinates.

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#76

Post by tedunangst »

skookumchuck wrote: post #72
tptacek wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's arguing what he said he's arguing: that women he's talked to or heard about view being asked out on dates by coworkers as an imposition. I've heard exactly the same thing.

Do people ever like being asked out by people they are not attracted to? Isn't that always an imposition, regardless of the venue?

If too many bros hit on you at the bar, you can leave and go to the bar next door. If too many bros hit on you at work, sure, you can quit, but that's rather more disruptive to your life.

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#77

Post by skookumchuck »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #75
skookumchuck wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outlawing normal human behavior has never worked in the past, and it's unlikely to start working now. Office hookups are going to keep happening. Regulations against soldiers fraternizing with the locals all failed. Laws against interracial relationships never worked. Laws against homosexual relationships didn't stop it. Prostitution continues unabated. Adultery is so commonplace it is hardly worth mentioning.

Why are you making this about laws? This is about people that are employed voluntarily needing to follow certain rules of conduct for their continued employment. This is not about some constitutional right to fuck your subordinates.

Legal consenting adults do have a constitutional right to engage in consensual relationships, regardless of laws and moral codes otherwise. And history amply shows they will do so regardless.

Case in point - Clinton/Lewinski. That was a textbook case of sexual harassment according to Federal regulations, except that Lewinski maintains to this day that the only abuse she suffered was from the media.

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#78

Post by tedunangst »

sverige wrote: post #70
tptacek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were right the first time. You discriminated your behavior based on the gender of your reports, knowing that doing so harmed the careers of the women who reported to you. It's a little weird that you think you can somehow rationalize your way out of that. It's even weirder that you think that your own perceived self-interest somehow immunizes you. You said it yourself! Own it! And then stop doing it!

I treated the men on my teams exactly the same way. There was no discrimination. They were all treated equally. It's a little weird that you think you have all the information you need to pass judgment on my career from a few short comments on an internet forum. It's even weirder that you haven't made any substantive comment or query on how that policy played out in real life, but rather resorted instantly to shrill…

> I treated the men on my teams exactly the same way. There was no discrimination. They were all treated equally.

Did you also refuse to meet with men privately?

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#79

Post by cycrutchfield »

skookumchuck wrote: post #77
cycrutchfield wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you making this about laws? This is about people that are employed voluntarily needing to follow certain rules of conduct for their continued employment. This is not about some constitutional right to fuck your subordinates.

Legal consenting adults do have a constitutional right to engage in consensual relationships, regardless of laws and moral codes otherwise. And history amply shows they will do so regardless. Case in point - Clinton/Lewinski. That was a textbook case of sexual harassment according to Federal regulations, except that Lewinski maintains to this day that the only abuse she suffered was from the media.

That's nice, but completely irrelevant.

Re: Sex Scandal Toppled a Silicon Valley Chief. Investors Say, So What?

#80

Post by lovich »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #45
squarefoot wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"constraints on when and where sexual propositioning is appropriate (and it's not appropriate in the workplace)." That would be right if only we didn't build a society requiring every non rich member to spend most of his non sleeping life at workplace.

Work-life balance is a choice. I'm not sure why you feel the need to apparently spend 16 hours a day at work, but: - You don't need to be doing that - You probably are not very productive working that many hours per day

Work life balance isn't a choice for people who get lower salaries in America. The choice is do what the boss says or go hungry/homeless
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